General ethics & morals related questions, thoughts

[M V]

A thread to post questions and thoughts about ethics & morals.

This thread is for smaller ones that don't need a thread by themselves.

For the big ones like abortion, death penalty, walking away from an underwater home loan etc, there are separate threads.

[M V]

If a person walks away from a loan, or contemplates talking a home-equity loan with the intention to not pay it back, he might be said to be selling his soul.

If a person has paid bribes to get work done, and knows/acknowledges that he will also pay bribes in the future if needed, and faithfully signs an 'end corruption' or 'support Anna Hazare' petition, what is the status of his soul? :) Sold? Rented? Mortgaged? Partially sold?

Opinions welcome. :)

[cyberabadi]

If a person has paid bribes to get work done, and knows/acknowledges that he will also pay bribes in the future if needed, and faithfully signs an 'end corruption' or 'support Anna Hazare' petition, what is the status of his soul? :) Sold? Rented? Mortgaged? Partially sold?

Indians have no choice. Its a disgrace that 1+ billion people want to end corruption but each one of them will pay bribes to get work done in India. I sincerely do not believe there exists a single Indian who has not paid a bribe directly or indirectly. 10% of the price (at the minimum) of each and everything that flows through India is the corruption cost. We, Indians, are hypocrites. We as a nation are sold to corruption.

[rajaR2I]

Indians have no choice. Its a disgrace that 1+ billion people want to end corruption but each one of them will pay bribes to get work done in India. I sincerely do not believe there exists a single Indian who has not paid a bribe directly or indirectly. We, Indians, are hypocrites. We as a nation are sold to corruption. 10% of the cost of each and everything that is bought in India is the corruption cost.

True. we are one shameless soul talk about corruption while participating in it. It better not to engage in such discussion.

[M V]

Anyone following the Greg Mortenson "Three Cups of Tea" scandal? I was reading this defense of Mortenson:

[QUOTE]Why "Three Cup of Tea's" lies don't really matter

"Three Cups of Tea" belongs to that category of inspirational nonfiction in which feel-good parables take precedence over strict truthfulness. Its object is to present a reassuring picture of the world as a place where all people are fundamentally the same underneath their cultural differences, where ordinary, well-meaning Americans can "make a difference" in the lives of poor Central Asians and fend off terrorism at the same time. Heartwarming anecdotes come with the territory and as with the happily-ever-after endings of romantic comedies, everyone tacitly agrees not to examine them too closely. "Three Cups of Tea" is a wonderful tool for eliciting donations for the very worthy cause of educating Afghan and Pakistani children, which is its purpose.
Does the good work he did and what he achieved make up for the lies and misleading contributors? Or does the good have to be on the scale of the good achieved by Sathya Sai Baba before such pardon can happen? :)

I read but didn't buy his book; if I had bought it instead of borrowing from the library, might have felt cheated on the $$ spent.

[boca]

Anyone following the Greg Mortenson "Three Cups of Tea" scandal? I was reading this defense of Mortenson:


Does the good work he did and what he achieved make up for the lies and misleading contributors? Or does the good have to be on the scale of the good achieved by Sathya Sai Baba before such pardon can happen? :)

I read but didn't buy his book; if I had bought it instead of borrowing from the library, might have felt cheated on the $$ spent.

If he is a fraud, he should be kicked in his rear. No pardon. :) People can find inspiration elsewhere.

[M V]

If he is a fraud, he should be kicked in his rear. No pardon. :) People can find inspiration elsewhere.

:) I guess the good that he has done or achieved would reduce how far back the foot (of the law!) is drawn before it meets his rear : )

[KirKS]

If a person has paid bribes to get work done, and knows/acknowledges that he will also pay bribes in the future if needed, and faithfully signs an 'end corruption' or 'support Anna Hazare' petition, what is the status of his soul? :) Sold? Rented? Mortgaged? Partially sold?

8 days back, on Sunday, I marched with my wife in Gandhi Bazar, Bengaluru, holding a candle for JanLokpal bill's implementation. We had TV cameras & press photographers, not to mention 1000+ people cheering & watching our march. Lots of sloganeering in Hindi, Kannada and English. Felt very good to be a part of youth movement.

Within 24 hours, I was forced to pay a Rs.1500 bribe by a government babu. I had a travel coming up in a couple of days and had only two choices. Either pay the bribe, get the work done in 2 days (even though I was not cutting any corners when it comes to paperwork), or make a few visits to get the work done without bribe. I paid the bribe, like I have done in many cases before, as the cost & time for me to make repeated visits would exceed the bribe being asked.

Got a earful from wife that evening.. 'what was that? Saaku saaku.. brashtachara saaku, while holding the candle yesterday night, and today??'. Simply accepted that I was at fault, knowingly, and got on with my schedule for the week.

Could I have avoided the bribe? Yes of course. But as mentioned, it would cost me more time and money, not to mention a bit elevated blood pressure which folks on street will say 'unnecessarily'. The only good thing I might do is to register this in IPaidABribe.com and trap that babu, after a few days, which most likely won't make much difference either.

Shamefully, I have no moral dilemma at all. I viewed this situation as a cab with meter running, while I am haggling with a street vendor. The more I haggle, the more my cab's meter would run. And the margin available for haggling is eventually going to be smaller than the expensive cab's meter.. which is our professional life.

Will I hold the candle again shouting 'saaku saaku.. brashtachara saaku' (enough.. enough.. enough of this corruption)? Again, surprisingly, yes. Without any moral dilemma to my own double standard when it comes to last week's proceedings. You know why? Because when the system is rotten, we should pick our battles which make impacts. Can't fight at every opportunity and lose the bigger war!

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I sincerely do not believe there exists a single Indian who has not paid a bribe directly or indirectly. 10% of the price (at the minimum) of each and everything that flows through India is the corruption cost. We, Indians, are hypocrites. We as a nation are sold to corruption.

While I agree with you on the Indians being hypocrites, starting with myself, its also time to introspect a bit further.

- How many drivers have you seen on US highways who actually follow every traffic law?
- How many common waitresses or mom 'n pop shop owners you have met who have never cheated on taxes for cash transactions? (Forget mom 'n pop.. even the most highly educated scientists are more likely to cheat on taxes than some other categories)

I totally understand that these examples are in no way at the same league as blood sucking level of corruption in India. But the small message is that when it comes to pushing the 'envelope' a bit further, most humans would take a chance. It's like we all clicking on that 'I have read the terms and conditions. I fully accept them' during any installation to just get over that annoying step. I can guarantee, 99.99% of the folks lie to themselves as well as the asking software when they click on those check boxes. Yes, it doesn't hurt in most cases, but a lie is a lie... and almost everyone is a liar if we raise the bar to check honesty.

In summary:-

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I view cutting the line (short cut to prevailing procedures/laws) by paying bribe is very bad.. criminal in most cases. If we take this path, it should bite our conscience for a long time.

Speeding up the process by paying some money, while not violating any procedure/law, is bad, but not criminal. I took this path just last week, like many times before. This type of bribe in India is more like a 'mandatory' tip.. sucks, but...
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[M V]

#8 Thanks for the response. The "time" factor is often the reason people give for paying bribes. Their time is worth more than the bribe. That eventually means the poor man who cannot afford the bribe has to spend even more days making the rounds of the office than he would have needed to. The more the rich pay bribe due to "our time is worth more than the bribe", the more the poor man's suffering increases.

[rajaR2I]

Will I hold the candle again shouting 'saaku saaku.. brashtachara saaku' (enough.. enough.. enough of this corruption)? Again, surprisingly, yes. Without any moral dilemma to my own double standard when it comes to last week's proceedings. You know why? Because when the system is rotten, we should pick our battles which make impacts. Can't fight at every opportunity and lose the bigger war!

So you sincerely agrees that we CANNOT change the system AT ALL because we are using them for our favor.