r2i forum

Rajiv Malhotra book, Caste-Jati-Varna distinction, Caste and Arranged Marriage Portals, Inter-caste love & parental approbation to marriage, etc… have been mentioned in threads here and discussed in detail. Many of these are also things that LIA desi children learn about and ask questions. In desh, they probably get their "knowledge" on such matters from the "street" -- that generic osmosis of living in their own culture, and draw whatever inferences to themselves. I had simply explained away caste as the hindu equivalent of "the right to free association", similar to what is guaranteed for all of us here in LIA. In more detailed discussions, we had equated the various US-regulations for redressing discriminations against groups as the same as the desi-Indian* "reservations", and caste-based quotas. The jati-based political parties, activism etc.. seem the natural schemes of collective bargaining of a special interest group or association with whatever the system they are bargaining with.

Do you see the modern version of jaathi (caste) as a kind of label for the right to free association, with set rules for membership, and the society (or association) offers comfort, sanctuary, help, support, and potential marriage partners for the children of members etc… ?


*The desi-indian was added later to avoid confusion with the "Indian Reservations" here in USA, with Casinos and Resort hotels.

okonomi;425193
Do you see the modern version of jaathi (caste) as a kind of label for the right to free association, with set rules for membership, and the society (or association) offers comfort, sanctuary, help, support, and potential marriage partners for the children of members etc… ?

No. Casteism has to be equated with racism and fascism. It is discrimination by birth sanctified.
The groupism and the political bargaining should go away. Nothing to be proud about or to be promoted.

Do you understand that the hindu caste system came up with different privileges to different groups based on birth? Please read Manusmriti. How is Hitler thinking that jews are a curse to society different from an upper caste hindu thinking that coming to contact with an untouchable is a sin?

layman;425200 How is Hitler thinking that Nazis are a bane to society different from an upper caste hindu thinking that coming to contact with an untouchable is a sin?

?? you meant jews?

layman;425200No. Casteism has to be equated with racism and fascism. It is discrimination by birth sanctified.
The groupism and the political bargaining should go away. Nothing to be proud about or to be promoted.

Yes; I understand that membership is a "given" at birth. And "what is" has always been different from "what should be".
All of the affirmative action programs in India are attempts at correcting the lack of access to opportunities for those groups who had been historically denied that. Since there are many shortages, access to goods that are in short supply would be highly competitive and affirmative action -- positive discrimination in favor of groups ( groupism ?)--- must stay for a while to redress inequalities.

layman;425200 How is Hitler thinking that Nazis are a bane to society different from an upper caste hindu thinking that coming to contact with an untouchable is a sin?

I really didn't know that Hitler thought that.:confused:

Added after seeing #3: Yes; "jews, slavs, gypsies and most of the italians too" !! :)

Anees;425212?? you meant jews?

Thanks.:e

okonomi;425193 I had simply explained away caste as the hindu equivalent of "the right to free association", .

My point is how can you equate caste to a right to association? Do you get to choose your caste? The main point of "right to free association" is the right stressed.

My explanation of caste system to my kid will be as follows.

Hindu religion has cyclical view of life. Life continues across births and the ultimate goal is to reach god avoiding birth. One's birth is determined by the actions of the past. Depending on the actions during one birth one's next birth is determined. Since the birth is based on previous actions, different sets of privileges are also attached at birth. There is another set of people that does not fall in any of the caste, again based on birth, called untouchables. There is no freedom to choose one's caste, it is forced by birth. Caste system promoted discrimination and inequality. Amends are being made by affirmative action.
[quote]
Do you see the modern version of jaathi (caste) as a kind of label for the right to free association, with set rules for membership, and the society (or association) offers comfort, sanctuary, help, support, and potential marriage partners for the children of members etc… ?
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What is modern Jathi?
Jathi or caste is still used in negative connotation. It is used by politicians to stir hatred and to consolidate votes from castes. As to marriage, it is completely silly to check one's caste, gothra etc for marriage. Not to mention the murders and violence that happen on the name of caste in various regions of India.

layman;425223My point is how can you equate caste to a right to association? Do you get to choose your caste? The main point of "right to free association" is the right stressed.

I think it is the right by birth to freely associate with the caste one is already born in. It is like there is only one option and one has the right to choose that option. It's a menu option with a single radio button :)

layman;425200....Please read Manusmriti. How is Hitler thinking that jews are a curse to society different from an upper caste hindu thinking that coming to contact with an untouchable is a sin?

Thanks !! I know there had been efforts to bring UN sanctions against India for human rights violations. That is a different issue. In these efforts, modern GoI (since 1950) is blamed for being too slow to redress human rights violations of the centuries that went before that period. I will google manusmrithi, for sure. However, I am sure I will probably end up reading a lot of the wiki-smriti on this. While whatever may have happened in the past to deal the modern India the hand she has been dealt, she has to play with that. And the various groups (on whatever basis they come together) vying for a share of the power to make a difference in the lives of those they represent ought to be a good sign.

One of the most confusing things to me (too much LIA :( ) is to reconcile why some caste is a higher caste, when the group is not necessarily holding on to higher levels of wealth, in comparison to some other group. Besides the wiki-entry linked here, there are kiddie reading materials that are quite wild: these two are pro'lly meant for elementary school kids.
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/india/people/
[URL="http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/india/people/slaves.htm"]http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/india/people/slaves.htm

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After the local kids get the idea that native americans are different from indians, they will have to deal with who the real indians were/are !!

layman;425223......What is modern Jathi?
Jathi or caste is still used in negative connotation. It is used by politicians to stir hatred and to consolidate votes from castes. As to marriage, it is completely silly to check one's caste, gothra etc for marriage. Not to mention the murders and violence that happen on the name of caste in various regions of India.

Isn't the concept of caste or jaathi evolved to something different ...more modern..."de luxe" :wink ? Political vote-banks strategy works only so long as the vote banks are kept dissatisfied, stay within the constituency and be uneducated.
The marriage portals offering the various filters of religion, language, caste, sub-caste, sect ( I was quite entertained by these !!) in short-listing candidates must have value for the clientele. After all, sight unseen, there must be a way to cut down on the number of potential candidates. I bet a pretty face beats caste every time. And besides, there must be some "minimum standards" that a caste-community-sect etc.. implies in these things. However, I see from all the success stories from the sites, it is not silly at all. It seems quite valuable.

okonomi;425229

One of the most confusing things to me (too much LIA :( ) is to reconcile why some caste is a higher caste, when the group is not necessarily holding on to higher levels of wealth, in comparison to some other group. [URL="http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/india/people/slaves.htm"]
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It doesn't matter. The entire caste system is screwed up and stupid. If a higher caste person wants higher level of wealth why do we stop him? When is artificial restriction a virtue? At what cost?
Can you think of a scenario where Wright brothers were asked not to screw up with aeroplanes because their caste dharma is to be a priest?
Or Isac Newton to not to work out equations because he is a sudra?

What would have happened if people's free will and inclination was curtailed on the name of caste dharmas all over the world?

[quote]
Isn't the concept of caste or jaathi evolved to something different ...more modern..."de luxe" :wink ? Political vote-banks strategy works only so long as the vote banks are kept dissatisfied, stay within the constituency and be uneducated.
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How and when can you keep all the vote banks happy?
[quote]
The marriage portals offering the various filters of religion, language, caste, sub-caste, sect ( I was quite entertained by these !!) in short-listing candidates must have value for the clientele. After all, sight unseen, there must be a way to cut down on the number of potential candidates. I bet a pretty face beats caste every time. And besides, there must be some "minimum standards" that a caste-community-sect etc.. implies in these things. However, I see from all the success stories from the sites, it is not silly at all. It seems quite valuable.[/quote]
You bet. That is why our ancestors came up with the caste system. If we deny the right for education for lower caste, we can cut down the crowd in schools. And, there will not be crowd in temple if we eliminate certain castes and so forth...

Point here is caste system is discriminatory the way it was created and practiced. The use case you showed of filtering information is a superficial and trivial use case.

As for understanding and explaining what it is to foreign living desis as well as non-desi colleagues, castes do look like a fallback criterion for use in forming personal relationships and forming loose associations. As for politicians, serving one's constituents is in the nature of a democracy. Oh..yes… and getting reelected in the next election cycle. Understanding who the constituents are is what makes a politician savvy to be a successful one in the system. The greater demand for transparency would eventually lead to the politics turning caste neutral.

The governments in india (at local,state and federal level) sustains the caste labels when they administer those anti-discriminatory programs and access to government services and subsidies. The classification of the population into castes or classes is needed so that those who are supposed to get the benefits, do end up getting them. When adequate progress has been achieved, in equitable manner, hopefully the governments will drop these classifications and move on.

Here is an interesting excerpt from an older post:
[QUOTE]4. Caste as a 'touch' or superior/inferior concept is pretty much broken. Any casteism of that sort is only limited to libraries of pseudo-intellectuals or confines of walls of real casteist people. What you and me can't possibly do in even 100 years is the dilution of caste as an identity concept in society. A Thakur, a Brahmin, A Gowda, A Mudaliar, A Patel, A Patil, A SenGupta, A Naidu, A Meena, A Nair etc. can't be wiped out even in 3 generations. They have become identity of India just like Smith, Baker, Fuller, Berger have become in US. Let them be around as a society needs identity. As long as superior/inferior and untouchablity are removed, caste would be toothless. Every country in the world has some form of sect/class/race based identity.
I had thought the concept still counted for a little more than just an id of ancestry. Different castes had different cuisines, manners of conduct, their own variations in speech in the local vernacular, and more when outsiders understand the nuanced behavior better. Perhaps this was the reason why the matrimonial portals have those divisions identified.
Well....may be not. Modern living, communications technology, movies, television and the information age could have flattened the lot of the differences.