r2i forum

Desi;160763I did not say that proof has to be in terms of physical reality or that there has to be proof? I asked you a question, if soul has physical attributes. That is a simple question - is it not?

If you think soul is imaginary and has no physical attributes, I have no disagreements. If you think soul has existence as a feeling, like say feeling of happines, I have no issues with that either. I am just trying to understand what you think soul is? What its attributes are and it seems based on your post, you think soul has no physical attributes, no memory, nada, zilch. It is either physical or non-physical. Non physical means non tangible. In other words it is a feeling of the mind, or an imagination or a state of the mind. Since it is not described in terms of emotions, the only thing left seems to be Imagination.
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Lets just say it is instinctive. The existence of my self, my viewpoint is reason enough to believe I have existed and will exist after this life along with the universe. If I had not existed, the universe did not exist either. Someone has to have, should have had and will have a first person perspective, if not me then who? [quote]
Light acts as a particle and has wave properties. Light has a finite speed in a physical world that can be measured. When photons hits photosensitive material, there is photovoltaic effect. Mass and energy are interchangeable. When photons strike a photosensitive film, they leave an image - photography. Light is not a feeling, it is not a philosophy that cannot be explained but that has to be felt. Light is real. It exists even after the emitting source is gone. For example if alpha centauri were to disappear today, we will still be seeing the light for the next 4.5 years as it is travelling.
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Light also has a property that when it travels, time freezes in the frame of reference that light is travelling essentially making light travel from Alpha Centauri or Andromeda to earth in zero time (in it's reference). My point was would light have been "tangible" without humans having eyes ? If yes then how? If no then along those lines there is a possibility that there exists some way of sensing souls and humans don't have that sense.


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You give soul the capacities of a physical being of intellect, of being able to discern if the hand belongs to it or not and you argue it is not physical!!! I see contradictions.
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I never gave soul the capacities of a physical being of intellect. Matter in a conducive form such as a human body or mind allows soul to carry memory, feel tangible things etc. The physical attributes here such as memory, nervous system etc are still outside of the soul.

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The reason I did not respond to this part of the query in previous post, because this is really a discussion of science and a topic of a separate thread.
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I would have kept science away. I had to bring it since you asked if my philosophy could stand scientific scrutiny.


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Google tunnelling microscope. (BTW, I am not asking for pictures of a soul, although that may come later).
Science discovers some things and then based on study of the discovered things explains their behavior.
Science postulates other things based on some observed phenomena, These postulates are just a hypothesis at this point. Based on hypothesis, predictions are made and attempts made to verify them and when every prediction made is correct, is repeatable, the hypothesis is no longer a hypothesis, it is a theory. Scientific theories of gravitation, evolution are treated as facts as predictions based on theory can be verified.

Now what is your point? That soul is a hypothesis based on observations? That God is hypothesis based on observations? or have they been elevated to theory? If hypothesis, which o bservations?
If theory, which predictions have been validated. I can show you predictions that have gone awry.
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Like I said philosophy doesn't have to be a hypothesis or theory. They can be speculative in nature. These speculations need not be imaginative but can be instinctive.

Dovahkiin;654678My post was in general about atheism, I am not judgmental (maybe a bit mental), I just can't understand how atheists can't see the writing on the wall, Which isn't about religion but state of affairs related to organized religions. We are living in most acceptable time period for atheism in history of human civilization, atheists have backing from scientific discoveries, this means people who follow organized religions should decrease in numbers, Only problem is, it's not happening. We have more religious hardliners than we had in at-least last few centuries, more and more people are interested in following thorough religious rituals, public gathering at religious places which had no significance few decades back would amaze you. Hold these false preachers has over people is overwhelming, hardliners are taking over organized religions and in turn regimes. People are ready to kill each-other over slightest religious provocation, What atheists wanted is NOT GONNA HAPPEN even in a million years (though I would give humanity even far lesser time than Hawkins). Infact atheists believing that world would be free from organized religions is biggest unrealistic fairy tale I ever heard. I think If atheists are rationalists then they would agree up to this point in my post.

So What's the remedy or second best option for atheists as well as for anyone else wanting a better world ? Keeping organized religions in hands of sane liberal men, all smart talks from smarty pants atheism preacher like Sam Harris mean nothing, they are as corrupt as these fake baba we have, Only difference is that his audience is better informed than that of these Baba, But he's following very same principles, Be smarter than your audience, Tell them what they wanna hear and add emotions here and there when needed.

Trust me, When you tell someone something he won't like/ held sacred, he/she would never believe you. People don't want to believe in truth, they believe in what they want to believe. So when you would give these examples to someone who believe in that particular religion, You won't be able to change his mind, You would just make him angry at you and a bit more hardliner about his beliefs.

This debate about atheism versus at-least Islam could never finish, even the best atheist preacher would not be able to defeat me, And I won't be able to defeat him either. But essentially we both want the same thing, A world worth living in and while we engage in silly debates, only hardliners would gain from this.

Dovahkiin;654678
So What's the remedy or second best option for atheists as well as for anyone else wanting a better world ? Keeping organized religions in hands of sane liberal men, all smart talks from smarty pants atheism preacher like Sam Harris mean nothing, they are as corrupt as these fake baba we have, Only difference is that his audience is better informed than that of these Baba, But he's following very same principles, Be smarter than your audience, Tell them what they wanna hear and add emotions here and there when needed.

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Dovahkiin;654678
This debate about atheism versus at-least Islam could never finish, even the best atheist preacher would not be able to defeat me, And I won't be able to defeat him either. But essentially we both want the same thing, A world worth living in and while we engage in silly debates, only hardliners would gain from this.

techynt;654734If people keep brainwashing their kids at home and they become indoctrinated, its kind of hard for science to win, because most of these seems to be incorporated in one's psyche by the time they become adults.

I agree there is not much to debate, according to you there is a writing on the wall in invisible ink which we cant read and you also cannot explain........

It fine, maybe another 20 years we will have less religious folks in next generation and then after 50 years, I have a feeling people will be laughing at all the mythological stories. Its just a matter of rational folks reaching 55% of population tide will turn and we wont have to worry about people getting killed in the name of religion.

sunburns80;654735Teachings of Sam Harris are corrupt? How do you mean? Please elaborate.

I don't think he speaks what his audience wants to hear. He has audience because of what he speaks. There's more money to be made in easier ways with out endangering one's life like he did.

Do you have similar perspective towards Hitchens, Dawkins too?

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realgoogler;654736The use of word "defeat" shows a lot of ego support for your position. Its all good but just that it might just shut your door to facts and truths.

The reason why it will be difficult to weed out religion is because it is so interlinked with culture and it hangs on culture and habits. It is not easy or prudent to throw all culture out. So it will take time. In million years we might not have religion in the current form but other mass appealing craziness.

Dovahkiin;654753

That's what every charlatan makes his audience to feel. When someone tries to insert emotions here and there, speak untrue things to elicit a response, he/she becomes a charlatan. A saw his one video (which someone posted with great enthusiasm, must be one of his better one) and I see him outright lying and trying to add emotions here and there. Haven't seen Hitchens, Dawkins, If I see their views, I can only then give my opinion.
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Dovahkiin;654573This post is in general to atheists, Most atheists aren't original thinkers, they just repeat what few self proclaimed atheist speaker charlatans (like Sam Harris, who was making absolute laws in biology)

One of the biggest mistake atheists commit is that they expect God to be described in human terms and rules of physics, They expect God to be what they read as in Kids stories/ fairy tales. Asking questions is a good thing, It takes you away from falsehood, But what's the use if You (Atheists in general) use knowledge and brain to get away from falsehood and don't complete the journey to Truth ?

How to describe God ? Do they expect it in matter of 3D dimension or Visual appearance or sound or magical powers ? It's So silly, How can one expect to describe Allah when every last piece of information human brain has, many short comings, There was no space (3D or otherwise, So how can you expect Allah to be described in space), there was no light (How could they expect to describe visually) there was no sound. Everything been created during or after The Big Bang. Time, Space, Matter, Gravity and every rule of physics, Any information we have is of events after big bang, every guess we would make would be just guess, No theory Just a wild guess. Our perception and our intelligence has it's limitation in describing Allah, Best way to describe Allah is reading about 99 names (Attributes actually) described in Islam, That's closest Humans can get to describe Lord in their limited level of consciousness. Even atheists If read them with neutral mind would say that If God exists, These would be best attributes to describe him in realm of human consciousness.

Dovahkiin;654753

You are still stuck about my explanation about how God can't be described in human terms. 'Writing on wall' was about organized religion are here to stay and best atheist can expect is them to stay in hands of sane, tolerant men.

sunburns80;654784There's zero substance in your argument except callous accusing without a shred of evidence. I expected something more logical. I should have known better after reading some of your replies.

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hermes;654786You say that man kind cannot comprehend universe or creation, that's enough fair.
But can you explain how they figured out these 99 attributes of Allah(or any other religions God attributes)? It looks like wish list rather than based on facts.
Why all merciful God(of all religions) would want to kill other people of other religion? What happened to his mercy when entire nation (children) are bombed?

These attributes are the exact reason why mankind became atheists. Religions are just means or platform for the few powerful people to control and manipulate the mass.

techynt;654797How did you understand it if it cannot be described in human terms, are you not human? or is the notion that no need to understand, just accept it as divine magic?

Another thing to keep in mind, while writing please pay attention to TL;DR . I usually skip anything which has 50 lines in same paragraph in a internet forum.

Please keep in mind that we are not scholars, we are just people with too much time in our hands and rambling in some anonymous forum. It usually helps if we are not on our high horse.