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MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:54 am
by RRK
Master thread to discuss religion..
:)
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:50 am
by layman
Of late there is a surge of religion related postings in r2iclub. There is a thread on vedic resources. Another justifies caste system...etc. This thread sees hinduism from a different angle, a critical one. This thread is a place holder for resources that analyses religion from a critical angle. The goal of this thread is not to malign religion or any group. It is to provide an alternate view point and to elevate the thought process to a higher level. I found the following link very interestinghttp://www.hinduism.co.za/newpage8.htm#Brahmanas%20and%20Sudras Some excerpts and comments as follows.>>>From The Mahabharata- Santi ParvaSection CLXXXVIII."He who takes pleasure in eating every kind of food, who is engaged in doing every kind of work, who is impure in behaviour, who does not study the Vedas, and whose conduct is unclean, is said to be a Sudra.">>>>In my opinion a lot of Americans (Westerners) fall under this category. Are they all sudras? >>>>From The Mahabharata,Anusasana ParvaSection CXLIII, The food of a Sudra, O goddess, is always disapproved of by the high-souled deities. ..... In consequence of those remains of a Sudra's food in his stomach, he falls away from the status of a Brahmana.Such a Brahmana becomes invested with the status of a Sudra, there is no doubt in this. This Brahmana in his next life becomes invested with the status of that order upon whose food he subsists through life or with the undigested portion of whose food in his stomach he breathes his last.>>>>What will happen to the Brahmans that take food in McDonalds? Is McDonalds a shudra outlet?Lot of people from India (esp parents travelling to US) avoid eating outside when they go on vacation in US and bring their own food. They might have avoided Shudra food. But, is it OK to work for an American who by the definition of hindu religion is a shudra? I don't know whether veda say something about it. >>>>From the Mahabharata, Anusasana ParvaSection CXLIII:The status of Brahmana once gained, it should always be protected with care by avoiding the stain of contact with persons born in inferior orders.>>>>>Is it OK to be in contact with Americans (Westerners) that eat pig and drink liquor? >>>>*(The scholar and translator of the Mahabharata, Sri Kisri Mohan Ganguli comments: `The Rishis think that the distinctions between the lower, the middling, and the higher classes of society are eternal, and nothing can be a greater calamity than the effacement of those distinctions. Equality of men, in their eyes, is an unmitigated evil.')>>>>Oh, Yeah!! You bet!
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:33 am
by MrLong
Layman,
I am not sure of the intent of this post, but, I do see this will certainly start a debate. I am with you in this respect to question the fundamentals of the religion.
Religion is for masses, devised by people, who wanted to exercise greater control. Religion, in one form or another, is POWER.
If Castesim is bad, and we all acknowledge it, then Religion is a greater form of dividing people. Is religion truly helping in one form or another?
What if there is a world that does not have any specific religion? What if there is no word in our dictionary called religion? Will our world be a better place to live?
Most people blindly follow religion, because, we have seen our elders do it, and do not question, nor attempt to understand what it is. These are ingrained in ourselves and our society, that questioning these will leave as an outcast in your family and your society.
I have been to Udupi Sri Krishna's temple, where the constant slogan in loud speakers was - do not ill treat Brahman's, respect Brahman etc.
All the quote you have above seems to be encouraging sects and higher classes and lower classes. So, what comes to Shudra? What are the consequences of being a Shudra?
By definition, I eat non veg, drink liquor, etc.. so I fall into Shudra!!!
Please note that, in this post, I am not against GOD. Our scope for discussion thus far, remains within religion.
-M
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm
by ILuvHyd
Always take the good from religion and religious texts. Some aspects of Hinduism are
1. Good and can be followed even today. (Majority of the Suktis and good words)
2. Out of context (Don't cross the seas. Following Indian Vaastu in America etc)
3. Some are outright bad. (Caste System, Gita - Always follow your Dharma even though it's bad and reject other superior Dharmas)
Religion talks a lot about Dharma which can change according to the situation. IMO, the rule of Law, Nyaya should be paramount. If there's a conflict between Dharma and Nyaya, one should always follow Nyaya, the rule of law.
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:48 pm
by ILuvHyd
layman;74005
Some excerpts and comments as follows.
>>>
From The Mahabharata- Santi Parva
Section CLXXXVIII.
"He who takes pleasure in eating every kind of food, who is engaged in doing every kind of work, who is impure in behaviour, who does not study the Vedas, and whose conduct is unclean, is said to be a Sudra."
>>>>
In my opinion a lot of Americans (Westerners) fall under this category. Are they all sudras?
[/quote]
I don't agree that Americans/Westerners conduct is unclean. If the above is an OR condition then I agree that they should be Sudras but if it's an AND condition Americans/Westerners don't qualify to be Sudras :emwink:
layman;74005
*(The scholar and translator of the Mahabharata, Sri Kisri Mohan Ganguli comments: `The Rishis think that the distinctions between the lower, the middling, and the higher classes of society are eternal, and nothing can be a greater calamity than the effacement of those distinctions. Equality of men, in their eyes, is an unmitigated evil.')
>>>>
Oh, Yeah!! You bet![/quote]
This conflicts with older Hinduism religious texts that the status has to be obtained with ones deeds and and it cannot be hereditory. This caste classification is mainly for division of labor in tune with one's abilities but cannot be hereditary.
According to Mahabharat, even King Bhrarat chose an able successor but not one of his sons for the throne. Later this tradition was broken by Shantanu when he promised that Mastyagandhi's son will be the emperor.
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:20 pm
by Bobus
Is a person who is Brahmin by descent a "brahmin" if he is working in Bata / Nike shoe factory or is he a "Chamar"?
Is a person who is Chamar by descent a "Chamar" if he is a teacher / Prof or is he a "Brahmin"?
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:24 pm
by Desi
My understanding is / was that caste is hereditary and that a person who is a Shudra is not supposed to even look at vedas let alone reading them by social constraints.
By varna, I am a Kshatriya, but by my actions and based on following, a king of shudra.
He who takes pleasure in eating every kind of food, who is engaged in doing every kind of work, who is impure in behaviour, who does not study the Vedas, and whose conduct is unclean, is said to be a Sudra.
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:43 pm
by Purujit
Bobus;74191Is a person who is Brahmin by descent a "brahmin" if he is working in Bata / Nike shoe factory or is he a "Chamar"?[/quote]
If he owns the shoe factory, he is a Vaishya. If he provides service there working for someone, he is a Shudra. If he is working in that factory as a security guard, he is a Kshatriya.
[quote] Is a person who is Chamar by descent a "Chamar" if he is a teacher / Prof or is he a "Brahmin"?[/quote]Depends on what he teaches. If he teaches righteousness, he is a Brahmin. If he teaches how to smuggle Nikey shoes, he is an idiot.
I am a shudra :emsmile:
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:57 am
by Bobus
Desi and Purujit:
Speaking the truth like you did, makes you Brahmins. :)
Regarding meat eating and Soma drinking, you are like venerated Rishis of yore. :)
Speaking of venerated rishis, apart from meat and Soma, the thought of Indra sending some Apsaras over for lap dances, is also quite delicious.
MT: Topics on Religion
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:52 am
by OurGen-X
layman;74005
Section CLXXXVIII.
"He who takes pleasure in eating every kind of food, who is engaged in doing every kind of work, who is impure in behaviour, who does not study the Vedas, and whose conduct is unclean, is said to be a Sudra."
[/quote]
These definitions of the "ideal" human being may be appropriate in the scriptures/religious books. However, in reality, there cannot be a single person who meets all of the above criteria - at some level or the other!!! :emsmile: