r2i forum

This is the thread to discuss, development in Gujarat, progress in Gujarat under Modi, as the primary focus.

The discussions may involve comparisons to to other projects, states, etc as well as lack of development or regress if in any areas - basically this means that both positive and negative aspects are open to discussion.

Discussions may involve, development projects, schooling, poverty eradication, jobs, etc. and may include development post and pre Modi era, but essential focus of discussion is intended to be as the title says. The other eras and states brought into the discussion will only be incidental and for comparitive basis.

Many posters who believe in Modi, I had to read many posts of 2 threads to update myself. I see that there is a thread dedicated to discuss the riots, Sorry, I am not interested in seeing Modi diminish behind bars nor from his current role of ruling Gujarat but I have reservations for him at national level unless he changes, so lot of thoughts thrown in so I will divide my thoughts in 2 posts..

Pattern I have seen with Modi's defenders(in various forums) is either an outright denial of Modi's role in what happened in 2002 or they want everyone to look past what happened in 2002 and just look at his shiny Gujarat,his developmental agenda and what has been achieved in Gujarat since 2002.

But majority of these backers became Modi's backers because of their animosity towards Muslims and that animosity stems from what happened to India since Ghajni's invasion in 11th century and the repeated destruction of Somnath temple or the communal tension that has plagued Gujarat since early 1920s, so the past is alive and will be alive for the injustice against Hindus or their religious places by the foreign invaders(Global terrorism since early 1990s further boosted this animosity unfortunately with even fair minded Indians), so is it fair to ask to forget what happened in 2002 alone while remembering everything else? The problem with that mentality is every problem in India is due to Muslims and will be alive in majority of his backers deeply even now.

Another argument they throw is that, in India, value of human life is anyway low and value of poor further low (not just in Gujarat, elsewhere too), so what happened 9 years ago isn't a big deal, so every one should move on looking at inefficiency of the ruling class at center and elsewhere but that argument makes sense only if everyone is able to forget the past history and everyone recognizes that yes, the state govt. with their mighty CM at helm failed its duty then and even if let go now, should be held accountable if the history repeats itself in the future.


Several independent and neutral journalists (not affiliated to any party) who have met Modi in person repeatedly have come back with one common impression: Power,Charisma and control. He is a micro managing person to the core and knows every statistics that his defenders put up for his superior administrative skills.That's why the defense that he didn't know about the carnage does not make sense nor is the assertion that he/his PR machinery is not involved in exerting pressure at local level officials to impartially bring justice for the victims nor is the assertion that he is a changed man now.

People (consisting of neutral minded (please exclude Congress politicians and Congress backed media people who want him down from this neutral people )) look at Modi's reluctance to own up for his mistakes even once publicly that he truly regrets the events of 2002 after 9 years.

But knowing his narcissistic nature (from several independent views), he wouldn't publicly acknowledge his error ever. His ambition burns bright. He realizes that affluent upper middle class and the educated middle class (like people here) who learn Indian history more than any population consider him the lone savior against past injustices meted to Hindus by Muslim rulers. Their viewpoint is solidified further with current tension of Islamic terrorism (along with tension with a hostile neighbors like Pak/BanglaDesh) and he doesn't want to lose this biggest block of supporters by saying that he values minorities same as majority, so publicly he will never acknowledge his inaction nor will he express his regret but he also realizes that Indians outside Gujarat do have higher tolerance for the minorities and higher regard for the plurality of Indian culture and are much more accommodating to a leader with middle-ground, so in order to win at national stage, he needs to portray a different image hence the developmental agenda at forefront and his propaganda machine at full speed ( I will add more on this that there are holes in claims like the 50% new jobs created in India are in Gujarat and many such claims) .

His reluctance to acknowledge his regret publicly even once makes me remember Bill Clinton's first presidency. Due to the house/senate election debacles and his failure to pass universal health care, Clinton thought himself as onetime president and was reckless in his womanizing towards tale end of his first presidential term thinking he wouldn't be accountable, Then voila, the economy started firing in all cylinders post 1996, people forgot his early debacles and he easily won his second term bid but never in his wildest dreams , did he realize that his legacy will be defined by his indiscretions and Monica gate but not by his superior administration and negotiating skills. If he was truly contrite, American historians would have judged him differently and same is the case with Modi.

But unlike Clinton, it's still not too late for Narendra Modi to detach himself from his Hindutva roots which elevated him to the leader he is now but to be the true leader of masses at national level, he has to show that prejudices to minorities is a thing of the past for him; India's population deserves good administrators of his caliber (with clean reputation and no nepotism) for continued progress. But can he overcome his religious prejudices before it's too late for the elections in 2014? I doubt it.. Can his supporters see any truth in this post.. I doubt it.

boca2blr;410538That would be ad hominem. We are here to discuss Modi, not Modi's supporters. :)

I don't want to discuss riots/the judicial process etc. I want to discuss his chances at the national poll and his popularity and developmental numbers put up by his defenders but how that can be believed knowing the nature of the person which fits this thread than the riot thread;you want to nitpick one point in 2 lengthy posts, I would have preferred if you posted in Hijack :)

But anyway my 2 posts remain here because IMO they belong here than 'Gujarat riots' thread as I clearly said in my post that Modi deserves to complete his term or continue ruling Gujarat if he wins subsequent elections but at national level, different yardstick applies unless he changes; if Admin think my posts are Hijack they can move them.

Guntur;410544What junk are you talking??? If you want to discuss on the subject stay focused. There is no need to point to members and post your views as theirs. No member said all the junk your posted in the above three paras.

Apologies! I have edited out member's names and apologies for clubbing them under one umbrella of Modi's backers. I appreciate if you can edit your post to reflect the edited post. Now you can talk on rest of the junk like whether half the jobs created in India are created in Gujarat under Modi's leadership :)

RBee;410539I don't want to discuss riots/the judicial process etc. I want to discuss his chances at the national poll and his popularity and developmental numbers put up by his defenders but how that can be believed knowing the nature of the person which fits this thread than the riot thread;you want to nitpick one point in 2 lengthy posts, I would have preferred if you posted in Hijack :)

But anyway my 2 posts remain here because IMO they belong here than 'Gujarat riots' thread as I clearly said in my post that Modi deserves to complete his term or continue ruling Gujarat if he wins subsequent elections but at national level, different yardstick applies unless he changes; if Admin think my posts are Hijack they can move them.

Didn't mean to nitpick:-).

Different yardstick does apply at the National level even if he doesn't change. He may have to mellow down the rhetoric part a little bit; his development programs have not been partial towards any community(that I am aware of) and there is no reason for him to engage in the kind of demagoguery which might let his detractors spin it otherwise.

indigoyogi;410564his development programs have not been partial towards any community(that I am aware of)

Well, with the thread being on development in Gujarat, I do not want to hijack it but you have mentioned what I quote above and I would like a a response point out a couple of things.

1. Gujarat is one of a very few states that has not instituted/developed a States Minority Commision << this limits remedies for minorities in cases of violations of law or unjust laws passed.

2. In addition, Modi's administration passed a "Freedom of Religion" bill under which a Hindu could convert to Buddhism or Jainism and vice versa at will and no permission from state authorities was required. Great. But if a person wants to convert from Hinduism to Islam or Christianity or vice versa, they must obtain state permission.

Therein is a partiality to Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism over Islam/Christianity. Five years after the bill was passed, it was withdrawn after the governor sent it to the administration stating that it violates constitution and that they should withdraw the bill. Do not want to list other examples at the moment but these two should suffice to show partiality.

Unless someone comes to a police station or police becomes aware of duress, individuals should be free to follow whatever religion they choose without state interference or a permission. It is like one must take a license from the govt if one decides to worship Allah instead of Ganesh or vice versa, but no license needed if one chooses to forget Ganesh and worship Buddha.

I guess positive development needed at least for Item #1. Item #2 finally resolved after five years by governor's insistence.

I tend to stay away from political threads because I dislike most (all) politicians equally so the following observations come from my growing up and living in rural/small town in Gujarat for close to 25 years before moving to US. I try to visit Gujarat every few years and these are the things I picked from first-hand observation or talking to friends and family about improvements after Modi took over. Some of these may not be due to Modi's initiative so don't shoot me if it's not.

- emergency ambulance service (I think you dial 108) - first hand experience - A head-on collision between two bikes, two people seriously injured. My friend who is a doctor dialed 108 and told them the location and then we waited for the ambulance while my friend gave them preliminary treatment mostly getting them ready for transport. Within 10 minutes, two ambulances were at the site and this was in the rural part of Gujarat. Another incident was calling an ambulance for a heart-attack patient, again similar response time. Very impressive IMO.

I have heard countless stories about the usefulness of the service. I think this was a national initiative but talking to my friends/relatives, I get the feeling that Modi made sure it was implemented right.

- The system where the state transport bus have to stop even if you are not standing at the bus stop. You can pretty much flag down a state bus anywhere on the route. - first hand experience and talking to people

- Improvements in the way state schools are run particularly holding the teachers accountable if they are not dedicated to their duties. Made it a lot harder for teacher to slack off. My mom was a principal in one of the schools and always saw teachers slacking off but saw huge improvements in behaviors once the spot surprise checks that were implemented by Modi.

- Connectivity to rural areas of Gujarat in terms of getting paved roads to most remote villages. I believe there was always money assigned to do such tasks before Modi but the money never trickled down until Modi started making people accountable for their mistakes. - first hand experience in my village

- Huge move towards making every governmental office having a good on-line presence where people can file complaints or get contact numbers to do that.

- One of my friends worked for Ahmedabad Urban Development Association (AUDA ??) and my discussions regarding the development in Ahmedabad suggested that Modi has a good vision when it comes to planning the roads and the surrounding development in general.

I will add more if I remember them. Reading my own post now it looks like a huge pro-Modi post but my intention was to post what I experienced or heard from the people I am close to and who actually live in Gujarat.

Desi;410578

2. In addition, Modi's administration passed a "Freedom of Religion" bill under which a Hindu could convert to Buddhism or Jainism and vice versa at will and no permission from state authorities was required. Great. But if a person wants to convert from Hinduism to Islam or Christianity or vice versa, they must obtain state permission.

Therein is a partiality to Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism over Islam/Christianity. Five years after the bill was passed, it was withdrawn after the governor sent it to the administration stating that it violates constitution and that they should withdraw the bill. Do not want to list other examples at the moment but these two should suffice to show partiality.

Unless someone comes to a police station or police becomes aware of duress, individuals should be free to follow whatever religion they choose without state interference or a permission. It is like one must take a license from the govt if one decides to worship Allah instead of Ganesh or vice versa, but no license needed if one chooses to forget Ganesh and worship Buddha.

I think you are confused about the original "Freedom of religion act 2003" vs "its amendment in 2006". The original act has no partiality. It prohibits forced/coerced religions conversions between any religions. You are also wrong about the "prior permission". Prior permission is only required for the person who is performing the task of conversion. The person who is getting converted only need to send an intimation.

Regarding the amendment which was proposed in 2006, the bill allowed the conversion between different sects of the same religion. i.e between sunni and shia etc... Unfortunately they clubbed budhism and Jainism as different sects of Hinduism and I am sure a lot of people have that view(not me).