r2i forum

Its an election time in US (campaign time to be more accurate). On my way to work this morning I saw a campaign sign for some desi lady for some county office. And first thing I thought to myself was 'she should win the election'. And next thing I thought about was my reaction to one of the programs on CNN after 2008 Presidential elections. In that program somebody pointed out that almost 90% black voters voted for Obama. Now I knew that black folks vote more 'democrats' than 'republicans'. But 90% seemed excessive. And I thought this is racism. You vote for a candidate because he is black? And now I realised, deep inside I am no different. I want fellow Indian American to win without knowing her credentials. So is this racists sentiment or something else? What do you folks think?

R2I-2010;325541Its an election time in US (campaign time to be more accurate). On my way to work this morning I saw a campaign sign for some desi lady for some county office. And first thing I thought to myself was 'she should win the election'. And next thing I thought about was my reaction to one of the programs on CNN after 2008 Presidential elections. In that program somebody pointed out that almost 90% black voters voted for Obama. Now I knew that black folks vote more 'democrats' than 'republicans'. But 90% seemed excessive. And I thought this is racism. You vote for a candidate because he is black? And now I realised, deep inside I am no different. I want fellow Indian American to win without knowing her credentials. So is this racists sentiment or something else? What do you folks think?

Racism is a harsh word...I would say its "home country bias".

I don't think it is racism. You identify more with the person of your origin and in turn feel your interests will be protected. The only problem is that you are deriving this as a natural instinct instead of doing some analysis. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong in leaning towards a person of your race, ethnicity.


Added later: In India if minorities supported someone from their community, they are criticized though.

Do you thinks its racism if a white man supports/prefers only whites?

I consider this as racism. And yes, I am part of it too. I too would vote for an Indian in my county/city/state elections..

And yes, we are Hippocrates too. When a gora hires a gora for a job, I say he did not hire me because I am not a gora. However, when I interview people, I would prefer to take a desi for the job. I am being racist here.. Its not a "bias to my home country".. it is pure racism..

If I do my research and find the merits of the election candidate to be higher than others.. Or if I hire the person because of his credentials being above other candidates.. then it is a different story. However, in most cases I am biased and racist..

2 cents.

R2I-2010;325541Its an election time in US (campaign time to be more accurate). On my way to work this morning I saw a campaign sign for some desi lady for some county office. And first thing I thought to myself was 'she should win the election'. And next thing I thought about was my reaction to one of the programs on CNN after 2008 Presidential elections. In that program somebody pointed out that almost 90% black voters voted for Obama. Now I knew that black folks vote more 'democrats' than 'republicans'. But 90% seemed excessive. And I thought this is racism. You vote for a candidate because he is black? And now I realised, deep inside I am no different. I want fellow Indian American to win without knowing her credentials. So is this racists sentiment or something else? What do you folks think?

I would call it affinity, not racism.

gwldaddu;325665
And yes, we are Hippocrates too. When a gora hires a gora for a job, I say he did not hire me because I am not a gora. However, when I interview people, I would prefer to take a desi for the job. I am being racist here.. Its not a "bias to my home country".. it is pure racism..

I don't think it is always racism when it comes to hiring from the same ethnicity or race. It has also to do with comfort, familiarity, ease to operate etc. I have this Indian friend who always recruits Indians. If you think he is doing a great favor to Indians and he is racist against native whites, think again. He does not recruit whites because he cannot ask whites to stay back at office until 10 PM or ask them to work on a Saturday .They will show his middle finger. Similarly, when a gora hires another gora it may not be due to racism always. Goras better communicate among themselves than communicating with an Indian or Chinese (commn with Chinese, forget it!). So, there can be reasons beyond race, such as commonality, familiarity, ease of operation etc that could cause people leaning towards their own race.

If I always eat Indian food and do not visit/patronize American restaurants, am I a racist? Why can't we apply the same logic to person we vote?

Are we biased towards our own ethinicity in certain things?- yes. Are we racists? - No

R2I-2010, In my view, it is racism. I believe such selection of a candidate either in an election or for a job, that subverts MERIT is racism/discrimination and has no place in a merit based society. I am not drawing a differentiation between racism and discrimination here becos both are equally not desirable.

An Indian selecting an Indian becos he is more likely to work on a saturday is not racism - since the need to work on saturdays may be a job requirement. But an Indian selecting an Indian becos of affinity, familiarity (I can speak in my mother tongue to him/her) is discriminatory. Not recruiting a particular Chinese becos he has communication problems is not discrimination, but not recruiting any chinese becos of a general perception that Chinese cant communicate is racism. I have seen several Chinese in Singapore and HK who can communicate very well.

I am puzzled by the attempt by some to justify decisions based on bias, affinity etc becos MERIT becomes the casualty in such cases. This can work against each of us, becos there is no limit to how much you can stretch 'familiarity' - next time I interview a candidate,I will look for someone from my country, my state, my city, my college, my caste....etc. Imagine you are a candidate for the same post. Will you still justify it ?

layman;325685I don't think it is always racism when it comes to hiring from the same ethnicity or race. It has also to do with comfort, familiarity, ease to operate etc.

Such is perfectly fine if one is selecting friends. However if one is selecting candidates for election or candidates for a job, one has an obligation to be more dispassionate.

layman;325685I have this Indian friend who always recruits Indians. If you think he is doing a great favor to Indians and he is racist against native whites, think again. He does not recruit whites because he cannot ask whites to stay back at office until 10 PM or ask them to work on a Saturday .

Sure, he can. that is just an excuse. If overtime or occasional overtime is a requirement of he job, he sure can ask them and make such requirement clear at time of hiring. If anyone who says they will not be willing to work overtime till 10 PM, then they do not meet requirements of the job and can be rejected. Race does not come into such a picture and selection process and should not.

layman;325685They will show his middle finger. Similarly, when a gora hires another gora it may not be due to racism always. Goras better communicate among themselves than communicating with an Indian or Chinese (commn with Chinese, forget it!).

Unless the key requirement is communication with this boss, then if selection is made based on the way you say, it is a discriminatory practice. I would think that most jobs have more important requirements than ease of communication with the boss.

layman;325685So, there can be reasons beyond race, such as commonality, familiarity, ease of operation etc that could cause people leaning towards their own race.

Yes, there are such reasons which you identify, but if they become key determinants in selection process while the key requirements of job being different, then they would be considered discriminatory hiring practices.

layman;325685If I always eat Indian food and do not visit/patronize American restaurants, am I a racist? Why can't we apply the same logic to person we vote?

Indian food meets your taste requirements and you select it. Are you discriminating against American food in such a case. No, it just does not meet your taste requirements, so you are not discriminating on the basis of its origin but discriminating on the basis of its taste. Of course, you are a discriminating eater (based on taste requirements) and that is your right when selecting personal friends, food, clothing. Selecting a candidate whoever thrusts upon you a much bigger obligation - i.e. A candidate is selected for a specific function, such as a mayor or a congressman who has a specific job to perform and if you ignore the requirements of that job and his platform of views and changes he/she wishes to bring about vis a vis your views on such, then such selection while legal is discriminatory and racist. In such a case, you have ignored another candidate who may be better or may better align with your political views but make a selection based on race.

layman;325685Are we biased towards our own ethinicity in certain things?- yes. Are we racists? - No

Bias is perfectly fine. However, we should not mistake racism and discrimination as bias and should not confuse the two.

============

We discriminate whenever we select one person vs another, one pair of pants over another, one type of food over another. We use certain requirments that need to be met to do this discrimination. In selecting pants, we use our own liking as the requirement. In selecting food, we use taste, presentation, aroma as requirement. In selecting a person for a job, we use job criteria. In any of these if we use race as a selection process excluding other requirements, we are being racist. When I walk into a Chinese restaurant because I like Chinese food, I am not being racist, the food can be called timbuktoo food for all I care, the reason I go is because of not the Chinese affixation but rather because the food that has the chinese affixation has garlic, soy, ginger, flash cooking etc that I like.

I once had to layoff a person and the person I selected to let go was an Indian. My team had very few Indians. The person I had let go was because purely due to performance reasons and race never entered the picture. My managers with whom I did not share my choice but asked them to give a suggestion of the unfortunate person we will have to let go and they gave me the same name.

Interesting discussion

avasanth;325717R2I-2010,

I am puzzled by the attempt by some to justify decisions based on bias, affinity etc becos MERIT becomes the casualty in such cases. This can work against each of us, becos there is no limit to how much you can stretch 'familiarity' -

Desi;325727
A candidate is selected for a specific function, such as a mayor or a congressman who has a specific job to perform and if you ignore the requirements of that job and his platform of views and changes he/she wishes to bring about vis a vis your views on such, then such selection while legal is discriminatory and racist

Is there a confusion between democracy and meritocracy here?

Democracy is selection by majority. There is no need that the selection needs to be on the basis of merit. In a democracy it is perfectly fine to vote for someone overlooking another meritorious candidate just because you like the candidate you voted for.

I agree with points made by #9 and #10 about not to discriminate based on race on certain situations such as selecting a candidate for a job or choosing a tenant etc. I am not endorsing discrimination here.

In a democracy, you are supposed to vote to protect your interests. Merit comes next.

FYI, selection not based on merit alone in election is a common practice. It is not considered discriminatory. For example, in churches the priests request the congregation to vote for a certain candidate (not based on merit). Same thing happens in the mosque.

If I feel an Indian shares the same value system as mine I will vote for the Indian candidate over another candidate. I don't see any issue here. It is just the same as a minority voting for a minority candidate in India. For example, sometimes a muslim votes for a muslim candidate in India because he wants the views of a muslim to be heard in the parliament. What is wrong in it?