r2i forum

okonomi;366302As for five begetting 25, I do not know if the civil code of the secular nation of India allows polygamy. Isn't that only possible in nikkah, some form of mosque-sanctioned cohabitation scheme within the community ?

Muslims follow what is called Muslim personal law in India and four marriages are allowed for Muslim males in India. The roots of this go to the formation of India and its constitution and of course the Muslim personal law.

Approximately, there are equal number of men and women born around the world (with a slight edge of a couple percent for males at birth).

Each woman can only give so many births regardless of whether she is married to X or to Y. The argument that Hindutva proponents give is that four marriages allowed means that Muslim population grows at a much faster rate (because of this), which I think is an argument that does not take into account the fact that a woman's productivity remains same whether married to A or B.

Desi;366329
Approximately, there are equal number of men and women born around the world (with a slight edge of a couple percent for males at birth).

Each woman can only give so many births regardless of whether she is married to X or to Y. The argument that Hindutva proponents give is that four marriages allowed means that Muslim population grows at a much faster rate (because of this), which I think is an argument that does not take into account the fact that a woman's productivity remains same whether married to A or B.

Interesting way of looking at it. I dont know what hindutva proponents stand is but imagine equal number of Muslims and Hindus males. Each male = 1family and assuming your each women can give some many births = 2 birth per women what do you think will be an average family size for a Muslim vs Hindu family if each muslim man have 4 wives.

Your argument that equal number of women and men translating to equal rate is based on the assumption that marriage is between men and women of same age. it further expands into a premise that some muslim men will not be able to marry if other muslim men opt for more than one wife. I dont think thats correct because usually man and woman have 0-10 years age difference during marriage. And for a man who is allowed to keep 4 wives this would further expand into 0-20 years.

ahirman;366899Interesting way of looking at it. I dont know what hindutva proponents stand is but imagine equal number of Muslims and Hindus males. Each male = 1family and assuming your each women can give some many births = 2 birth per women what do you think will be an average family size for a Muslim vs Hindu family if each muslim man have 4 wives.

Average family size would be the same in both cases that you cited.

Average family size is total number of members divided by total number of families. Whether a woman is impregnated by male A or male B makes no difference when computing averages.

Examples:

Case A: Five males and five females and each female having 2 kids. Total 20 humans and five families - average size 4 per family.

Case B: Five males and five females and each female having 2 kids. Three males unmarried. One male married to 3 women and another male married to two women. We have five families with 10 members in family 1, 7 members in family 2 and one member each in families 3, 4, and 5. Total is still five families with 20 members.

Now, one may argue that unmarried male is not a family and I say, what difference does semantics make - the issue is of population and how is it different?

ahirman;366899Your argument that equal number of women and men translating to equal rate is based on the assumption that marriage is between men and women of same age.

No, I made no such assumption. Whether a particular woman is of child bearing age (actual age immaterial) or not is immaterial. The woman regardless of her age can only produce from 0 to x and that does not change whether she marries a Hindu or a Muslim or if she is 60 years of age when she marries.

ahirman;366899 it further expands into a premise that some muslim men will not be able to marry if other muslim men opt for more than one wife.

Yeah. That is a reality of numbers. The fact however is that in India, such polygamy is not as common as some like Modi may want us to believe. In fact there is a shortage of women in India more due to foeticide than due to polygamy.

India's craving for boy babies leads to bride shortage - Telegraph

ahirman;366899I dont think thats correct because usually man and woman have 0-10 years age difference during marriage. And for a man who is allowed to keep 4 wives this would further expand into 0-20 years.

So you are suggesting that Muslim men marry women at a younger age than Hindus and thus have longer productivity spans. I disagree. Even Hindus get their daughters married off young, a fairly common practice. For a woman to get married off at a younger age than otherwise would be the prerogative of the family and the woman and not of the polygamist. The financial situation, the education limits the practice of polygamy. The financial situation and education limits the size of the family.

You are a patient person !! It is almost like a WWF bout. One opponent goes away and another comes back into the ring with the same old folder chair.

I just got off ROFL about how nanocrystalloids form when water becomes in contact with something to create homeopathic cures even when the alleged active components could not be present in the diluted water. Now the argument on how a very young woman with an old husband, 20yrs. her senior can get her pregnant more often than if she were to be wed to a husband who is only 10yrs. her senior.
I am sure people who drink scotch, have heard that ageing makes it better. May be the older husband had been to IIT-B, while the younger one had not.

Desi;366908Average family size would be the same in both cases that you cited.

Average family size is total number of members divided by total number of families. Whether a woman is impregnated by male A or male B makes no difference when computing averages.

Examples:

Case A: Five males and five females and each female having 2 kids. Total 20 humans and five families - average size 4 per family.

Case B: Five males and five females and each female having 2 kids. Three males unmarried. One male married to 3 women and another male married to two women. We have five families with 10 members in family 1, 7 members in family 2 and one member each in families 3, 4, and 5. Total is still five families with 20 members.

Now, one may argue that unmarried male is not a family and I say, what difference does semantics make - the issue is of population and how is it different?

No, I made no such assumption. Whether a particular woman is of child bearing age (actual age immaterial) or not is immaterial. The woman regardless of her age can only produce from 0 to x and that does not change whether she marries a Hindu or a Muslim or if she is 60 years of age when she marries.

Yeah. That is a reality of numbers. The fact however is that in India, such polygamy is not as common as some like Modi may want us to believe. In fact there is a shortage of women in India more due to foeticide than due to polygamy.

India's craving for boy babies leads to bride shortage - Telegraph

So you are suggesting that Muslim men marry women at a younger age than Hindus and thus have longer productivity spans. I disagree. Even Hindus get their daughters married off young, a fairly common practice. For a woman to get married off at a younger age than otherwise would be the prerogative of the family and the woman and not of the polygamist. The financial situation, the education limits the practice of polygamy. The financial situation and education limits the size of the family.

You are a patient person !! It is almost like a WWF bout. One opponent goes away and another comes back into the ring with the same old folder chair.

I just got off ROFL about how nanocrystalloids form when water becomes in contact with something to create homeopathic cures even when the alleged active components could not be present in the diluted water. Now the argument on how a very young woman with an old husband, 20yrs. her senior can get her pregnant more often than if she were to be we to a husband who is only 10yrs. her senior.
I am sure people who drink scotch, have heard that ageing makes it better. May be the older husband had been to IIT-B, while the younger one had not.

Desi;367012" I am just pointing to an assumption you are making while calculating the numbers. " <<< NO, NO. You are making a very wrong assumption in the example that five Muslim males all will marry 4 females each, as if there is unlimited supply of females.

I am not making an assumption here when I am using 1 Muslim male will marry 4 muslim females in the calculation. I am taking a hypothetical situation to simplify the deduction that I am trying to make. I know that the number of muslims who may be using this part of the MPL actually is very low in India and almost negligible in overall argument. I was just trying to prove that you are basing your calculation on a wrong assumption.

[QUOTE]OK, so a male marries a female from the next generation ( five years younger as you say, interesting to consider a wife five years younger as from the next generation), isn't the next generation now deprived of females taken by a previous generation? You see, there is not an unlimited supply of females. The number of females is approximately equal to number of males regardless of generation

Now you have spelled your assumption clearly here. You are tying it with productivity of a female and limited supply. There is a unlimited supply of females for males to marry as we live in continuous time where a generation can freely marry with members from next generation for a infinite period. You cannot deprive one generation as that generation will use the females from other generation and this can keep going on. But as you may see with this the current generation will marry more females then available in the current generation.

Thats why I said that if a muslim marries 4 females that doesnt mean that 3 muslims from his generation will remain unmarried. No they will use females from the other generations which when deprived will use the females from other generations.

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Cases were provided by you to explain that average family size remains the same. I just pointed out to you that its not the case.

One is not robbing abdul to pay altaf. Both are robbing Kasim from the next generation who is happy to Rob Wasim from next generation. But effectively for the current generation you are looking at more numbers. As you may see its not restricted to a given time and the difference will come only when there is no next generation for Wasim to rob from.

Desi;367007Let the numbers speak for themselves.

In last 50 posts:

20 posts by member Desi:
30 posts by other members:

Thanks recieved by Desi - a total of 3 = 0.15 thanks per post
Thanks recieved by other 30 posts are 24 = 0.8 thanks per post.
All the other 30 posts have received 21 more thanks (700% more), which is 8 times the thanks Desi received.

It does not take much to see where the cheerleaders are (if one wants to be truly objective, otherwise bias can easily cloud vision and much more), who they are and when they surface. It is extremely predictible and in case of two IDs(who I suspect belong to one, but just a suspicion on my part).

Desi, I was joking. Dont take it too hard. The poster was trying to put you as some crusader who is fighting alone to defend a cause and me as another aggressor driven by faith. I am sure it wasnt the case, at least not for me. I randomly came across the post, saw your reasoning and thought there are assumptions which you are using for your deduction. I pointed it out and we are still discussing it as I see it.

ahirman;367167Desi, I was joking. Dont take it too hard. The poster was trying to put you as some crusader who is fighting alone to defend a cause and me as another aggressor driven by faith. I am sure it wasnt the case, at least not for me. I randomly came across the post, saw your reasoning and thought there are assumptions which you are using for your deduction. I pointed it out and we are still discussing it as I see it.

No problems.

Given the comment I just wanted to set the facts right on the amount of cheerleading and where it is happening and numbers do not lie, hence the numbers.

ahirman;367162I am taking a hypothetical situation to simplify the deduction that I am trying to make. I know that the number of muslims who may be using this part of the MPL actually is very low in India and almost negligible in overall argument. I was just trying to prove that you are basing your calculation on a wrong assumption.

Yes, I understand the hypothetical part, and hypothetically speaking, every Muslim male cannot marry four females even hypothetically if they even wanted to. You cannot rob Peter to pay Paul, as at some point Paul has to catch up and for him to do that the supply of women is needed. When you put this down on numbers, your argument breaks down.

My point is simple and that is that those elements who go with hum paanch hamare pachees do not understand population studies and it seems to me that you also do not understand it based on arguments you have presented (I shall explain below yet once again).

ahirman;367162Now you have spelled your assumption clearly here. You are tying it with productivity of a female and limited supply. There is a unlimited supply of females for males to marry as we live in continuous time where a generation can freely marry with members from next generation for a infinite period. You cannot deprive one generation as that generation will use the females from other generation and this can keep going on. But as you may see with this the current generation will marry more females then available in the current generation.

That is a very flawed argument. There is not unlimited supply of females and any new females entering population are counterbalanced by equal number of new males entering the population which you seem to be ignoring and they will then have to go to next multiple generations till eventually the well runs dry and it runs dry very quickly in two generations itself if not one.


At any point in time number of males and females are equal (excluding the effects of longevity, untimely death, slightly different birth rates due to chomosome motilities). Let us assume that there are 4x males and 4x females.

If x males marry the 4x females, then 3x males are sitting without a female and if they somehow manage to get 3x times 4 = 12x females from next 3 generations, what do you thing the 12x males from next 3 generation are going to do? Dig out females from wombs? You see they cannot go to 25th century and preorder the females for delivery in the 21st century as full grown females. The lifespan is finite and birth rate is finite.

Those 12x males now have no females in their generation as they all were taken away by previous generation and these 12x males now need 48x females and they have to come from 12 next generations (according to you) and what is the life span of a male? And if you even ignore the lifespan, then for each of those 48x females born in the next 12 generations there will be equivalent males born who then would now need 192x females from next 48 generations.

Over 500 generations if every male has somehow married four females, it suggests that in average population, the birth rate ratio of males to females should be 1:4 and it is actually 1:1.

Your logic is horrendously flawed.

ahirman;367162Thats why I said that if a muslim marries 4 females that doesnt mean that 3 muslims from his generation will remain unmarried. No they will use females from the other generations which when deprived will use the females from other generations.

No, you are very wrong. Anyone can put the numbers on spreadsheet and see.

Over 500 generations if every male has somehow married four females, it suggests that in average population, the birth rate ratio of males to females should be 1:4 and it is actually 1:1.

The population increase is dependent upon the number of productive females and the productivity. If we assume 2 children per female, the number of females over one generation or fifty is approximately equivalent to number of males, so to assume that males will not go deprived is wearing blinders.
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ahirman;367162Cases were provided by you to explain that average family size remains the same. I just pointed out to you that its not the case.

Yes. I provided the cases because you made a claim that "average" family size of Muslims is bigger thus implicitly lending support to the claim of higher population rates a la Hamare pachees.

And your calculation has a flaw in the ointment and that is that for 4X males somehow 16x females are available, 4x from this generation and 12x from future 3 generations and the 12x males from future 3 generations will take 48x females from 12 next generations and the 48x males deprived in those generations will take 192x females from 48 next generations - do you see the flaw in your argument? or shall we extrapolate this further?

ahirman;367162One is not robbing abdul to pay altaf. Both are robbing Kasim from the next generation who is happy to Rob Wasim from next generation. But effectively for the current generation you are looking at more numbers. As you may see its not restricted to a given time and the difference will come only when there is no next generation for Wasim to rob from.

All I can say is, I have presented my case with numbers above and shown clearly the flaws in you your argument and have a good day.

Desi;367201 No problems.

Given the comment I just wanted to set the facts right on the amount of cheerleading and where it is happening and numbers do not lie, hence the numbers.

Number are not relevant for me. At your level of intellect one of the most important thing for you to consider is to pick your own battles and fights instead of being provoked into one by a cheerleader or set of cheerleaders.