r2i forum

dbs;275325The day IG was killed a friend from Pondy was visiting us.
After dinner, I was supposed to drop him back at Taj Palace, learning about the turmoil, we did not and he stayed the night. Fortunately, I had a spare tooth brush, unused.
Next morning, we drove out, we could see mobs on the road. Then, he remembered that he had forgotten his diary at the house. So we started to take a U-Turn. A policeman, noticed us and said - "You do not have to worry about anything. Go ahead. No one will harm you."

That said it all.

DBS - I personally don't know anyone who lived through the horrendous 1984 Sikh massacre by Congress goons. I have read & written enough on this. As a young school boy in South India, all I recall from Oct 31 1984, was that my cricket & 'goli' (marble) friends were dancing shouting Indira b**** died.. I don't recall much from newspapers too, as I might have just started to read papers by then.

If you could, please narrate more about how the mahol was in the area you lived. If you can recall, tell us about how news was reported, how TV/Radio & papers brought this shameful news out. Also, if you could, compare it to how you followed the 2002 Godhra & post-Godhra riots. I have heard it from many sources, but hearing from someone who had personal exposure to 1984 in particular would be truly interesting.

Your post above tells me a lot about how administration controlled the organized mass killings in the heart of capital.. worse Rajiv Gandhi & his goons got away with it.

KirKS;275348DBS - I personally don't know anyone who lived through the horrendous 1984 Sikh massacre by Congress goons.

I did not really live through the cong incited massacre. As narrated in the previous post, I was safe and not targeted.
Yet, for 3/4 days we stayed inside our colony, offices, shops, everything was closed. The sikh families in the colony were moved to non-sikh houses as a precaution, but no one came from outside to threaten.
The TV coverage was well govt. (cong) controlled, so there. There were reports of arson but not as bad as it was.
The tf lines remained up and that was the main means of communications. The house service people (milk supplier, house maids, etc.) would come and describe some of the horrendous stories. eye witnessed or hear say. I did see some burnt houses later.

One of the guys working in our office as a peon gave a description that made my wife vomit. The key phrase was "adhe katche adhe pakke' (half baked) bodies were just dumped on trucks and carted away.
Really something I would never forget or wholly remember. It makes me shudder whenever I think of it.

Later, much later there were truly horrifying stories in the papers. There were stories that after the Army was called in, they would not or could not fire as the magistrial/police orders were needed to open fire and the orders were not coming through.

No not something I would like to remember. I, personally, do not doubt the involvement of Cong goons, having heard from many friends/acquintances in position to know; but not having personally witnessed can not be a witness.

Mumbai riots, godhra train fire, etc., I was thousands of miles away and did not see the local coverage.

KirKS;275348DBS - I personally don't know anyone who lived through the horrendous 1984 Sikh massacre by Congress goons. I have read & written enough on this. As a young school boy in South India, all I recall from Oct 31 1984, was that my cricket & 'goli' (marble) friends were dancing shouting Indira b**** died.. I don't recall much from newspapers too, as I might have just started to read papers by then.

If you could, please narrate more about how the mahol was in the area you lived. If you can recall, tell us about how news was reported, how TV/Radio & papers brought this shameful news out. Also, if you could, compare it to how you followed the 2002 Godhra & post-Godhra riots. I have heard it from many sources, but hearing from someone who had personal exposure to 1984 in particular would be truly interesting.

Your post above tells me a lot about how administration controlled the organized mass killings in the heart of capital.. worse Rajiv Gandhi & his goons got away with it.

KirKS,

I have not been following this thread, so I don't know the whole context. However, at the risk of revealing my true identity (no, I am not a secret agent!!) I will try to relate my experience. Half of my family (my Mother is a Sikh) and part of my wife's family is Sikh. Operation BlueStar (Op BS) and 84 riots have been a hot topic in our extended family for a very long time (though I was very young at that time). I lost a Uncle and 2 young cousins in 84 in Delhi and Kanpur. My mom always says that our relationship with 'that part' of our family has never been the same since 84. Before 84 we were one family which somehow has changed forever now.

I remember in 89 when Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated. We got the news late in the night. No one slept in our house the whole night. We were continuously trying to reach everyone in our family to make sure it was not a Sikh who did that. Whole family was living in a fear of re-living that nightmare.

80's was a really bad decade for Sikhs. I recall non stop comments, remarks and teasing of Sikhs. In trains, schools, almost everywhere. I know it sounds really extreme but I guess you have to be there to understand. Many of my relatives moved, left MP and UP in those days and moved to Punjab/US and Canada. It was not an easy move, after being in Central India for almost 2 generations, picking up everything and moving completely was a huge decision.

I have heard of stories of Sikhs who resigned their Government posts or who were passed over for promotions (specially in Army).
There was absolutely no help or aid from Congress Government. A day after riots started in Delhi, Doordarshan was showing "angry mobs" shouting "khoon ka badla khoon" inciting more violence and bloodshed. There were Sikh majority areas of Delhi (such as Tilakpuri) where almost every home lost at least one member of their family. I remember reading about one family which had 37 widows. Countless Sikhs were burned alive with Tyres filled with Petrol and kerosene hung around their necks.

84 riots in Delhi, Kanput, Bokaro and other places were completely state supported (may be even State sponsored). It was not just mob mentality which caused so much death and destruction. Congress party and their croonies planned and funded that massacre. Till date not a single politician has been booked for those crimes.

I read in some other thread that Rajiv Gandhi was not responsible for 84 riots since his mother's body was lying there with 31 bullets in it and he personally did not do anything wrong. To me, its like saying that since Hitler personally did not kill any Jew he is not responsible for the holocaust. It was the people around Rajiv (Tytler, Sajjan Kumar, Dhawan, Bhagat) who personally incited the mob and funded this massacre and who were later given ministerial positions in his Government. Another point was that there has been countless commissions and none of them have found these politicians (Rajiv Gandhi) responsible for these crimes. Well, to me that doesn't prove that they were not involved, it just shows how effective our political system is where a politican really can get away even with mass-murder.

I know after this post, I may be asked to put links, quote articles etc. No, I don't have any. All I have is what I have heard in discussions in my family. You may or may not agree. My uncles used to own a few banned magzines (I think one of them was Surya) which had detailed accounts on how Congress really planned these 'murders' but I don't have access to them.


It really is very unfortunate when we start blaming the whole community for misdeeds of a few without realizing that we are sidelining a whole generation with our actions. That is why when I see comments/posts about Muslims in general (e.g. Shahrukh Khan on Pakistan thread) I cringe. It is very difficult to understand how a minority community always have to prove that they are patriotic.

dixit;276130It is very difficult to understand how a minority community always have to prove that they are patriotic.

I feel sorry for your family, what they had to go through.

When the seeds of secession were sown long ago, it perhaps started this "proof of patriotism" burden. It is the same, be it Muslim or Sikh or Tamil or a score lot that don't feel like being fairly represented, including the Bodos, the Assamese, or the Nagas and a few more from the time of pre-Independence. One thing that the majority does, irrespective of the parties in power, is react with force when their interests are disturbed by such minorities. Their tools include this "proof of patriotism" and "nationalism" as soft weapons and the institutions of security as hard weapons. To the other special minority, viz the Dalits, it is the simple fear of God that is deemed suffice. Alas, such has been the story till date.

dixit;276130 Till date not a single politician has been booked for those crimes.

And they will never be. Not only for this but for countless others. This is due to the spineless bureaucracy. CBI, ACB all just knowrow to their bosses and lord over the rest of citizenary.

We heard of this guy, he was caught with pillowcases stuffed with currency notes in the house. Unlimited gold and sarees and shoes in the house. They guy was accused of killing his secretary and bribing MPs (yes, MPs) and taking bribe to vote a certain way. I am sure you have heard of Fodder scam, mining scam and what was probably the mother of all scams , viz Bofors.

No sir, these are not going to be unearthed. If you can get unquestioned PM's powers for next 5 years, even then you will not succeed in bringing these criminals to heel. The bureaucrats know that sooner or later, these criminals will come back to power and they will be made to pay if they take any action against them.

Journalists are no better. During emergency, except for Goenka (Indian Express) none dared to stand up against it. They get government accomondation, yes they do. Get to ride on govt. planes, get passes for privileged events. These would suddenly dry up if they go against.

This practice started during nehruji's regime. With his idealistic thinking, he wanted to free the journalists from the yoke of capitalist owners. During his time, the schme worked as envisaged. I knew one such journalist, his son and I became friends. he used to lampoon Nehruji all the time. But he had a house that would be the envy of a Secretary today. Now ofcourse, he is no more and the house is back with the govt. With Nehruji gone, the powers were back in their 'if you are not with us, then you are against us' and will be treated as enemies.

How do you think all these journalist's colonies with prime location land were formed at throwaway land prices.

I have run out of steam.

dixit;276130 I read in some other thread that Rajiv Gandhi was not responsible for 84 riots since his mother's body was lying there with 31 bullets in it and he personally did not do anything wrong. To me, its like saying that since Hitler personally did not kill any Jew he is not responsible for the holocaust. It was the people around Rajiv (Tytler, Sajjan Kumar, Dhawan, Bhagat) who personally incited the mob and funded this massacre and who were later given ministerial positions in his Government. Another point was that there has been countless commissions and none of them have found these politicians (Rajiv Gandhi) responsible for these crimes. Well, to me that doesn't prove that they were not involved, it just shows how effective our political system is where a politican really can get away even with mass-murder.

dixit - Thanks for taking time to narrate your personal account of anti-Sikh riots of 1984. I got my interest into this only over the past 5 years.

My reasons were:-
1) Previously unheard level of media & politician probe into post-Godhra riots (mind you post-Godhra mostly). I started asking myself. Did Modi & BJP in Gujarat do something that was never done in India? Has the administration never failed in India? It must have hundreds of times.. So I started counting the counts and the numbers horrified me. I am not saying Modi or BJP were guiltless, but their 'crime' was pale in comparison with what had happened dozens of times in independent India, particularly 1984.

2) I went to Mississauga Gurudwara on the outskirts of Toronto. I used to go to Mississauga since 1997 for Sahara cup and many other 'adventures' that it is famous for. But for the first time I entered a Gurudwara in my life in 2006, accompanying my curious in-laws. We were treated very well and even offered the Sikh equivalent of 'prasad'. An elderly gentleman came down and explained me why I should wear a scarf on my head (Being from a traditional Kannada family, we don't wear cloths on our head, particularly when praying at temples - as that is done only when someone's parents die). I loved the atmosphere in that Gurudwara, until a big banner caught my eye in the backside. It had Khalistan shout-out in big bold letters. I started asking myself.. why does politics & separatism be in a place that is as beautiful as this Gurudwara? Didn't get my answer immediately, but my curiosity didn't stop there. I started probing why so much hatred against India even in a place of worship.

3) The next one is from a speech attended in NY. Atal Behari Vajpayee was visiting NYC in 2003. My mother was visiting us too and we took her to Jacob Javitz center. She likes Vajpayee very much and hence we went early to catch a glimpse of this great leader. On the opposite side of Javitz center, a small but very vocal group of Sikhs were shouting anti-India slogans. Didn't pay much attention, but there were women & children too.

There are more.. We heard of a few Sikhs migrating to Karnataka in mid 80s (remember Bidar in Karnataka has one of Sikhism's holiest shrines). One was my classmate too in college later. My first few years of experience to TV in late 80s were filled with Gurdaspur, Kapurtala, Bhatinda, Amritsar, Jalandar massacres/attacks/bombs in trains. How could Sikhs, who once constited 33% of Indian armed forces, go down to such level of anti-Indian attitude?

Your narration, DBS' narration and all the reading I am doing over the past 4-5 years is opening my eyes pretty wide.. As a Hindu, I feel really ashamed to call these Congressi mobs (and other mobs who kill in India) as humans.

Let's not even get into phony justifications that hard-core Congress supporters give to isolate Rajiv Gandhi & the dynasty. It's not worth even 2 minutes of anyone's time. Rajiv Gandhi failed to protect Sikhs in Delhi in 1984. It was not some remote Chhattisgarh jungle where you lose 75 jawans like India lost today. It was the capital of a country and all the 'action' happened due to the inaction of our dear PM, within 20 KM of his residence. What a shame!

If it was not for a shoe of a Sikh journalist, Manmohan's government would have rewarded Tytler yet again.. Horrendous track record to say the least!

At the end, my salute to the Punjabi Sikhs in India today. They have not just turned things around, but 'almost' back to pre-1980 days. They had major faults too that prompted Indira Gandhi to launch the 'operation', but they are back to mainstream.. unlike their traitor neighbors in Kashmir.

Thanks again for narrating your views. They are valuable.

dbs;276245 How do you think all these journalist's colonies with prime location land were formed at throwaway land prices.

I learnt today about something unbelievable that Rajdeep Sardesai, now of CNN-IBN, wrote in early 90's. It kind of goes in contradiction to what Dixit is writing about generalization considering early stages of Islamic terrorism in early 90s, so I will stop right here. But should tell a lot about 'journalist' bias in India!

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main18.asp?filename=Ne072906Page_06.asp

[QUOTE]Rajdeep Sardesai even wrote an edit page article regretting that Dawood?s patriotism was being questioned by nasty saffronites.

KirKS;275348I personally don't know anyone who lived through the horrendous 1984 Sikh massacre by Congress goons.

I personally had experience in both 84(delhi, kanpur)/92(kanpur) riots, avoided to post any details. In 84 administration didn't take any action for first 24-36 hours and in 92 administration was aggressively taking action. If congress was responsible for 84 then BJP was responsible for 92.

KirKS;276255 I got my interest into this only over the past 5 years.....But should tell a lot about 'journalist' bias in India!....

Kirks(and others) you never had any experience, got interested recently and also think journalist are biased. So how come you came to the conlusion? Are not you googling and believing only those articles that you want to believe. If you think 'jouranlist' are biased then you should stop providing any article link to confirm your opinion.

KirKS;276255. So I started counting the counts and the numbers horrified me. I am not saying Modi or BJP were guiltless, but their 'crime' was pale in comparison with what had happened dozens of times in independent India

Now you are agreeing that Modi/BJP are sinner(but lesser) than congress :). A more mathmatical comparison would be divide number of people died (due to their sin) on per day during their governing period.

dixit;276130It is very difficult to understand how a minority community always have to prove that they are patriotic.

yet to see any comments from right wing public...

Two latest CONgressi sins to count:

1) Not just a sin, a horrendous blunder by UPA/Congress - The menacing naxalite sweep of central & Eastern India.

Yesterday's cold blooded massacre of 78 CRPF jawans in Chhattisgarh was the worst single naxal attack. It is believed to be masterminded by a Warangal polytechnic graduate Sudarshan.

How did UPA allow naxalites to establish from just 55 districts in 2003 to 223 districts across 20 states in India today? Still we hear talk but no intelligence or counter-attack operations. We are talking about 37% of India affected by this communist terrorist cancer!! By ruling India from 2004 till date, hasn't UPA demonstrated it's total inability to tackle the #1 security issue (along with #2, #3 etc.)? Time for Chidambaram & Manmohan to resign & go home.. After all Manmohan is now worth 44 crore rupees, so he doesn't need to make any more moolah by playing a puppet for breadcrumbs from the dynasty. UPA keeps giving India horrendous home ministers.. First it was the joker Shivraj Patil now this 'Thames river' accent in Dhoti. What a bunch of jokers killing India from deep within when it comes to (in)security! At this rate, India will turn into another Nepal within a couple of decades.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/apr/07/posturing-wont-help-in-fight-against-naxals.htm

[QUOTE]Critically, Chidambaram has already noted that 223 districts across 20 states in the country are already infected by Maoist activities, up from just 55 in 2003 -- though areas that 'consistently witnessed' violence covered just 400 police stations in 90 districts in 13 states (there are 14,000 police stations in the country). The seven worst-affected states in 2009, in terms of fatalities, were Chhattisgarh (345 killed), Jharkhand (217), West Bengal (159), Maharashtra [ Images ] (87), Orissa (81), Bihar (78), and Andhra Pradesh (28) (SATP data).
2) I recall Congress supporters jumping in joy when Modi's visa issue popped up. Don't give him Visa.. you know what he has done? :p

Now let me hear Con supporters jump with the same joy.. their beloved 'leader' is now already holding a visa to talk with uncle Sam's bodyguards. And he acts dumb.. 'what did I do'?? :p

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/nath-summoned-by-us-court-for-alleged-role-in-anti-sikh-riots-19383.php
[QUOTE] The case has been filed by two Sikhs, Jasbir Singh and Mahinder Singh on behalf of the New York based organisation, Sikhs for Justice. Their attorney Gurpatwant Pannun claimed Jasbir lost 24 members of his family and Mahinder, who was two-years-old then, lost his father.

"In India it is impossible to hold human rights violators," Pannun told PTI.

The Sikh group said that they are acting now because they have given up hope for action to be taken in India. "We waited for all these years because commissions were being set up...there was hope but because of his position Kamal Nath has successfully avoided justice for 25 years," said Pannun.

Dixit #51,

Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry for your family's loss.

It is sad, nay criminal, that the politicians have gotten away with cold-blooded murder of innocents. I feel more sad when the common public like those represented in these forums, sides with the politician murderers and refuses to even acknowledge their guilt in the murders and give flimsy excuses though the evidence is right there in front of their eyes (Applies to both Modi and Rajiv). I bet if one of their own loved ones was killed in these state-sponsored murders they would be singing a different tune.

How Congress is bailing out Satish Sharma from 15 CBI cases - Corruption is our motto!

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/content/48-how-centre-bailed-out-satish-sharma.html