r2i forum

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:42 pm**

Hi all, I am a civil engineer and I have been to conferences in India about 8 years back to know more about global warming which I believed then was an imminent danger.I presented couple of papers in these conferences in Kerala and Delhi. Later, I switched my career to computers for more "Greenery" in USA, but I passionately follow this argument about Global warming.

I have gathered more information and learned to be critical about theories, experiments and research findings. I must tell you from what ever I know (I dont claim to know everything) based on facts Global warming is total Horse, bull etc s**t.
Some one pointed out about Lohachar in West Bengal in these groups. I was about to reply to that post but felt that there should be a separate discussion about this one sided argument about global warming. To drive my point, please take look at this article.

http://mc-computing.com/qs/Global_Warming/NewsPapers/Lohachara.html

Please note that I have been talking to different people here in America about this and my following criticism is not base less. Developed countries economy thrives on new business opportunities. Some of the markets in the developed countries have saturated. One of the very cleverly crafted concept by the western world is "Global Warming". Most of the people are aware of the ridiculous documentary by Al Gore about global warming. This documentary seemed like a political/personal documentary mixed with global warming. Crucial information that proves that temperature rise is not man made is omitted from the graphs and facts on which this documentary is based .
Please take a look at any of these clips

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mHjczyA75jU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKL3Lv_DzfU

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6031514559084805348

Other day there was an iterview in NPR (for those who are not in USA, NPR - National Public Radio is broad casted through out US and is widely listened to) with Retired General Anthony Zinni of US military about global warming. When one has the skills to convince the world that attacking Iraq is justfied, using those skills for falsely promoting fight against gloabal warming is a cake walk. This interview proves the same skills that the developed countires posess.Link anything and everything to Global warming. Please, please, please, please look at the point 3 of the recommendations made by the US military general at this interview with NPR at this link
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9580815

The recommendation says "The United States should commit to global partnerships that help less-developed nations better manage climate impacts."

Really?
· Isnt this the country which is causing most pollution?
· Isnt this the only country which created the mushroom cloud and talks about NPT?
· Isnt this the country where slavery existed and preaches about child labour? Isnt this the country which let patients die of syphilis in Tuskegee, Alabama to gather data for their experiments. (See this http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html)

Well, I may be making this sound like anti US but thats not my motive. I admire several other things about USA. India as a country and society had and has some pathetic and despicable practices. We should learn to see what is right and what is not. Learn to see both side of the argument. Learn to see what the actual motive/s. Gather more knowledge.
Imagine that developing countries like India spends billions and it turns out that no matter what; the temperature rises?? It is fact that earth started warming from the Ice age. The current studies are not complete and biased. Pollution should be controlled, natural resources should not misused. But western countries global warming agenda is driven to create a new business avenue. This is a gross misuse of scientific data. It is time that India does more research (may be it is already doing) to gather facts. Its not just global warming, in other areas too independent research not only helps us to have edge but also not be taken by such crappy arguments.

Please forward this to every one you know. Not as anti US or pro global warming campaign but as a drive to become well informed citizen of the world.

Thank you

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:21 pm**

Even if you were to assume, even for a moment, that global warming is a farce, it will not hurt us terribly to stop emitting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere so regularly and polluting the only habitable planet in this solar system. Planet Earth is a beautiful place and, as good citizens of this planet, we should do everything we can to keep it as habitable as possible.

Number of humans have grown from 2.5 billion to 6.5 billion in the last 50 years. Surely, we are creating more pollutants than ever before as we continue to breed and our numbers go up.

To you, endangered species and extinct species may not be real either, but to others, these are real issues. I am all for doing something about this menace, virtual or real, just because it makes our planet a better place.

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:49 pm**

Chicago Desi, do you know that the temperature rise is faultily attributed to carbon dioxide? i.e. carbon dioxide has nothing to with temperature rise? we do need carbon di oxide for life to sustain on earth.
My point is; to save the earth,do the right thing.find the right causes. dont make it a capitalistic venture. have you seen some of the measures? Carbon trading for example..it is totally so ridiculous. If you want to do what you want to do to save earth, thats great. If you are wise to understand that you should do something, take time to know what is it that you should do. The cause (ex carbon dioxide) itself is wrong.So the fix will not solve the problem.

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:05 pm**

r2ikyon;21158Chicago Desi, do you know that the temperature rise is faultily attributed to carbon dioxide? i.e. carbon dioxide has nothing to with temperature rise? we do need carbon di oxide for life to sustain on earth.
My point is; to save the earth,do the right thing.find the right causes. dont make it a capitalistic venture. have you seen some of the measures? Carbon trading for example..it is totally so ridiculous. If you want to do what you want to do to save earth, thats great. If you are wise to understand that you should do something, take time to know what is it that you should do. The cause (ex carbon dioxide) itself is wrong.So the fix will not solve the problem.[/quote]

r2ikyon, please educate us on what the reason cayuses for global warming are and how the effects can be reversed? Do you believe they need to be reversed at all, given what is at risk?

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:16 pm**

r2ikyon;21158Chicago Desi, do you know that the temperature rise is faultily attributed to carbon dioxide?
[/quote]

Even though you addressed this to Chicago Desi, I got curious by your statement. What causes global warming? How has it been caused? Could you please enlighten us?

Is it not true that in the last 150 years or so since we have been burning oil big time we have emitted thousands of megatons of Co2 into the atmoshphere?

[QUOTE]i.e. carbon dioxide has nothing to with temperature rise?

Nothing? What happens to all the excess CO2 we have been emitting? Is not CO2 absorbption spectra such that it absorbs the heat radiated from earth and re release ti back to earth? If not, please educate me as this is an area I am not well versed in.

[QUOTE]
we do need carbon di oxide for life to sustain on earth.

Sure, we do and if 100% of atmoshphere was CO2, we would be dead and no life would be sustained. So there is a balance. But not sure what is your point. Most educated people know that CO2 is needed to sustain life as plants use CO2 in the photosynthesis process.

[QUOTE]My point is; to save the earth,do the right thing.

Like?

[QUOTE]
find the right causes.

This is where you can educate our forum. You seem to say CO2 is not the culprit, so you must have some basis and must have done some study as to what the culprit is? Please enlighten us, at least me. I would like to understand what are the causes of global warming. I agree without proper understanding we cannot solve it.

[QUOTE]
The cause (ex carbon dioxide) itself is wrong.So the fix will not solve the problem

Please explain for the benefit of me and possibly some others what the cause is.

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:20 pm**

[QUOTE]Please explain for the benefit of me and possibly some others what the cause is.
and if u can't then stop this nonsense.

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:06 pm**

#1,
Watch the movie "An Inconvenient Truth".
Majority of the scientists have come to this painful truth with the few exception of the ones in the pockets of Exxon who love to spread some few convenient lies.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/02/climate.change.report/

More than global warming, other impeding threat is reversing of poles of earth whereby north and south poles would reverse and during that process there will multiple poles thus effecting the magnetic shield around earth and would allow harmful solar rays. The reversal has happened in the past and the next one is due anytime, some say its already started to happen as the scientists have discovered the strength around the poles is decreasing!

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:24 pm**

Chicago Desi..I admire the fact the you did not take a confrontational approach that people generally take on such issues.
Of the several papers that I read there seems to be one major reason for rise in temperature and that is:
"Sun Spots". Please take a look at this article http://www.rawls.org/Global_warming_omitted_var.htm

For this who do have the patience to go through the entire article here is a gist:

Correlation between sunspot activity and cloudless skies has been observed for over a century. It is also known that the Little Ice Age coincided with a sunspot minimum. What has been a mystery until recently is the mechanisms by which solar activity might affect climate. In the last decade, scientists have finally begun to solve this riddle. Solar flares generate storms of solar-magnetic flux that partially shield the Earth from cosmic radiation. Evidence suggests that this cosmic radiation promotes cloud formation, either by ionizing the atmosphere, or by affecting the atmosphere?s electrical circuit. Thus high levels of solar wind have the effect of blowing away the cloud cover, giving the Earth a sunburn. Add that solar activity has been very high since the 1940's, and the slight global warming observed since the mid 70's could easily be due to this effect.

Also in another independent study it is observed that temperature on Mars is also rising. Of course there are no humans on Mars so why is the temperature rising? This is related to the same sunspot theory.
But please note, I have not accepted this as fact completely. I have my thoughts open to possibly any other cause. Responsible living on this earth is the duty of every human being. The above article sates some of the measures that we can take (it is more from US perspective)

Here is what I think India can do keeping in mind that we are developing country with growing energy needs. These measures have nothing to with reduction of CO2 but measures to be taken considering the fact that fossil fuels will be gone sooner or later and that we have different kind of pollution:

1. Promote research to make solar power inexpensive (since we have tropical weather) and affordable. Make innovative ventures into this and emerge as commercial giant like the way we are making progress in Space science

2. Take measures to reduce particulate pollution (which is what cities in India have). Reducing particulate pollution is a big topic in itself and is totally different from global warming.

3. Energy resources will be gone sooner or later, so coordinate with different countries do catch up with acquiring energy in non conventional ways.

The list goes on. The bottom line is: cutting down on energy usage is something India cant afford to do at this point (Think about our aviation industry,ports, etc.). Using other forms of energy is the key. Other forms of energy is not for reducing carbon emissions but to prepare ourselves for consuming energy with out relying on fossil fuels. If we focus on cutting energy usage or start building plants for reducing carbon emissions we will be in deep trouble.
You might be thinking what?s the difference? Global warming or not the end result seems to be same why not do it? Well we need to continue to develop and become fossil fuel independent over time. Developed world is scaring developing countries by saying ?If you do that world will come to an end?, which is fabricated.

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:32 pm**

Sun spots or not, we are headed for major calamities and we need to address these issues now. Else our future generations will blame us for ruining this beautiful planet. For me, the mechanism is not as important as the end result, which we do not seem to have a debate on. Its a now or never situation and we should all do whatever we can to help reverse some of the effects.

On a lighter note, living in Chicago, it is very easy to write off global warming in the winter team, when one freezes one's b%$$s off.

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:35 pm**

What a single Chlorine atom can do to Ozone (O3) in the stratosphere is pretty amazing. I recently learned how the actual chemical reaction takes place... Freon is CFCl3 (Carbon, Flourine, and 3 atoms of Chlorine).

CFC, according to many, diffuses up to the stratosphere where UV rays cause a single chlorine atom to be released from a CFCl3 molecule. This single chlorine atom then goes in to a recurrsively destructive mode.

http://www.theozonehole.com/ozonedestruction.htm

Chemical equation

CFCl3 + UV Light ==> CFCl2 + Cl

Cl + O3 ==> ClO + O2
ClO + O ==> Cl + O2
The free chlorine atom is then free to attack another ozone molecule
Cl + O3 ==> ClO + O2
ClO + O ==> Cl + O2
and again ...
Cl + O3 ==> ClO + O2
ClO + O ==> Cl + O2
and again... for thousands of times

"When ultraviolet light waves (UV) strike CFC* (CFCl3) molecules in the upper atmosphere, a carbon-chlorine bond breaks, producing a chlorine (Cl) atom. The chlorine atom then reacts with an ozone (O3) molecule breaking it apart and so destroying the ozone. This forms an ordinary oxygen molecule(O2) and a chlorine monoxide (ClO) molecule. Then a free oxygen** atom breaks up the chlorine monoxide. The chlorine is free to repeat the process of destroying more ozone molecules. A single CFC molecule can destroy 100,000 ozone molecules"

Even if it is remotely possible that Cl from CFC can reach the stratosphere, it should be banned. The industry and regulations have done their part. But how and why they did it is a question that has provided fodder to conspiracy theorists.

Check this out http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/blackstock5.html. This has a very interesting short read on Dupont and how "Baptists and Bootleggers" sometimes have a common interest.

Whom should a lay person believe?

r2i forum

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming

Please Stop this nonsense about Global warming