r2i forum

RaReSha3;54751...But I have a question. How much of the pain of not having children is self induced ? With modern methods to treat infertility like IVF,ICSI,Surrogacy, whether the affected undertook these initiatives or were resigned to the fact that they could not have children so didn't do anything?[/quote]


RRS3,

The Maharajas' did have children - but never male progenies (well, except in the case of "Mookarasu")

At least one did have male children but not from the sitting Maharani and hence not a legal heir.

And the pattern of a skipped male child (every other generation) depending on whether the Maharaja was not natural born or not, makes it a very interesting coincidence...

The current prince ( a natural born) was born over 50 or 60 yrs ago, he probably could try modern science, but being steeped in history/faith and tradition, I doubt that they would even consider it.

Some excerpts from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wodeyar

No account on Wodeyar is complete without a detailed account on a woman's curse afflicting the family for well over 395 years.

"Another very interesting part of the story is that this Alamelamma Temple is under the care of the legal heirs of Alamelamma herself and they still stay inside the Mysore Palace fort. Strangely even these priests/caretakers appears to be cursed and even they do not beget children and follow the same pattern afflicting the Wodeyars!"

"After Raja Wodeyar?s death in 1617 to Chikka Devaraja Wodeyar in 1704 (there were four rulers in between), Kingdom was ruled by the surviving progenies of Yaduraya, but none could beget legal heirs! ....The sole exception was Chikka Devaraja's deaf and dumb son Kantheerava Narasaraja Wodeyar II - also known as mookarasu.
He was succeeded by his son Dodda Krishna Raja Wodeyar who Ruled from 1714 to 1732. With him Yaduraya?s direct lineage came to an end.
What followed was a succession of nominal rulers adopted by the surviving queens to continue the tradition. ...There were five Rulers from 1732 to 1796. In this period a definite pattern emerged wherein none of the natural heir to the throne born to a King (adopted or otherwise) could beget children, whereas one who became a King by virtue of adoption or otherwise was blessed with a legal heir. "


"Surprsisngly (Mummudi) he had children from his other wives. He had three sons and many daughters from these minor queens. He had one son- Nanajaraja Bahadur- from a Brahmin lady known as Puttarangamba Devi and even today this lineage survives and is known by the name Bahadur (Nanjaraja Bahadur Choultry is a famous heritage structure in Mysore). But ironically none of the three sons survived him! One of the descendants, a successful American citizen, has recently started B.N. Bahadur Institute of Management under the auspices of Mysore University"

Desi_by_Nature;54886Well actually I know a real life case like that (our neighbors in Delhi): A couple with 4 daughters no sons - all 4 are married now and have kids. ALL the kids are girls!
What do you say about that? Is it just coincidence?

I think there's something more to it.[/quote]

The probability of 4 daughters (and no sons), given 4 children, is [1/2]^4 = 1/16. So if you take a random sample of say 1,600 couples, each with 4 children, you can expect that 100 couples in the sample will have all 4 children as daughters.

Depending on the number of kids each daughter has, you can calculate the odds similarly.

You may like to read the book "A mathematician reads the newspaper" - it talks about everyday situations where simple math is relevant. Sometimes formal education system teaches how to calculate probabilities in complicated situations, but little about where even simple probability calculation is relevant - the book helps with that.

I see the Mysore Maharaja case similarly. One needs an expectations model (simple probability calculation) first. Then one can look at the relevant population size, and ask how many such cases one would expect to see, and take it from there - a surprise may not be justified - in fact it would be surprising if there were no such case.

Desi_by_Nature;54886Well actually I know a real life case like that (our neighbors in Delhi): A couple with 4 daughters no sons - all 4 are married now and have kids. ALL the kids are girls!
What do you say about that? Is it just coincidence?

I think there's something more to it.[/quote]

DBN,

W/o second guessing if your post was a "tongue in cheek" comment:emwink: , I would boldly decide that it is merely a coincidence.

There's no interesting or complex pattern attached to the case that you have mentioned, unlike in the case of the Wodeyars.

Desi;54835DL,

Have you computed the probability of this event?

There are people who win multi million dollar lotteries twice the probability of which runs one in billions if not trillion and such events occur too. I really do not believe that this is an extraordinary scenario in case of Wodeyars.[/quote]

Bobus;54896...I see the Mysore Maharaja case similarly. One needs an expectations model (simple probability calculation) first. Then one can look at the relevant population size, and ask how many such cases one would expect to see, and take it from there - a surprise may not be justified - in fact it would be surprising if there were no such case.[/quote]

DB/Bobus,

If we toss a coin repeatedly, what are the chances that it will falls head up 3 times, followed by tails up 7 times, repeatedly and in a sequence say 9 times?

I would say that if we toss the coin enough no. of times, such an occurance is bound to happen.

Regarding the probability of the "Wodeyar" pattern occuring, one can easily bet on it since it has already happened/happening

Now what makes the Wodeyar pattern suprising or even strange, (notwithstanding a somewhat complex pattern) is that it has been *foretold to occur at a particular time and w/ a particular family*.

Now, all this assuming that the curse actually did preceed the Wodeyar pattern and did not in reality follow it!

The next logical thing to do is see if this curse was actually recorded in the annals somewhere and if so, when?

We will only find out whether the pattern will continue or not when (the present scion) Srikantadatta Wodeyar's adopted son's son comes of age.

W/ the expectation that the pattern may fail in the future, proponents of the curse theory are already saying that w/ passage of time the curse will cease to exist etc. They say that it has passed w/ the abolition of the princely state and the privy purse.