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Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:40 pm
by obajaj
During the past several years, while I have been visiting India, I have definitely seen an improvement in the red tape imposed by the Government in several aspects of life.
However, there is still a very high level of corruption, in my opinion.
I have very angry feelings towards this disease, and to some extent it is curbing my otherwise strong desire to R2I in the next year.
I wonder what people in this forum think of this problem when considering R2I. I have no problem with following the law, paying my dues in terms of taxes, etc., but when it comes to "under the table" activity, it makes me mad to the extent that I feel like going out of my way to teach a lesson to any corrupt government officials I encounter. For me, that was the biggest reason why I immigrated to the U.S. in the first place.... To get out of that horrible atmosphere of corruption.
In those days (10 years ago), it was impossible to fight it, so I decided to leave.
Today, has it become possible to fight it? (And still lead a sane life?)
Or is it something that one still has to live with?
The reason I have decided to post to the forum, is that I recently have started to have a dealing with the government, and it remains to be seen if they will behave themselves or not....
Any personal experiences? (Either way: Of either fighting it or not?)
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:46 pm
by DosaiLvr
Today, has it become possible to fight it (corruption) ? (And still lead a sane life?)
Yes and no.
It depends on one's definition of "fight".
Naxalites fight, those leading active resistance are fighting, so does a person who writes or exposes wrong doings. A teacher, a reformist etc. are all fighting.
IMO, if one picks his/her fight and fights w/ in the framework of law, (even if the other party is violating it), one can still lead a sane life.
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:03 pm
by DosaiLvr
obajaj;68961...Any personal experiences? (Either way: Of either fighting it or not?)[/quote]
Though I don't see how my personal experience could matter, I've experienced both.
I've given in at times, and have chosen not to in many other situations.
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:27 pm
by csvirus
obajaj;68961During the past several years, while I have been visiting India, I have definitely seen an improvement in the red tape imposed by the Government in several aspects of life.
However, there is still a very high level of corruption, in my opinion.
I have very angry feelings towards this disease, and to some extent it is curbing my otherwise strong desire to R2I in the next year.
I wonder what people in this forum think of this problem when considering R2I. I have no problem with following the law, paying my dues in terms of taxes, etc., but when it comes to "under the table" activity, it makes me mad to the extent that I feel like going out of my way to teach a lesson to any corrupt government officials I encounter. For me, that was the biggest reason why I immigrated to the U.S. in the first place.... To get out of that horrible atmosphere of corruption.
In those days (10 years ago), it was impossible to fight it, so I decided to leave.
Today, has it become possible to fight it? (And still lead a sane life?)
Or is it something that one still has to live with?
The reason I have decided to post to the forum, is that I recently have started to have a dealing with the government, and it remains to be seen if they will behave themselves or not....
Any personal experiences? (Either way: Of either fighting it or not?)[/quote]
I look at it as a legacy that has been handed to us by the old guard. It just seems to keep turning for the worse. People who you term as corrupt know very well that you can't do a diddly squat. The max you might be able to do is perhaps seek their suspension for a few days/weeks and then they are back in action. The latest pay commission has sought to increase the pays of the generally corrupt to unprecedented levels. All bcoz they felt that tax collections have sky rocketed, so why not distribute it amongst themselves. It just gets from bad to worse.
you really need a zen master of the order of Gandhi or perhaps even quadrupled to fight the kind of stuff that exists in India today. You will end up losing a lot of emotional energy and more if you choose to have an experience.
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:19 pm
by obajaj
Well, I understand that I can choose where I want to give in or not.
I'm not looking for a fight or looking to be a Gandhi either.
When you're a victim of corruption, you feel "used" and that is what I'm referring to. I think its a fundamental issue to consider when moving back to India....
Anyone,
Has this been a reason for consideration to either live in or return from India?
Fighting with corruption on a usual basis can wear you out.
Giving in to it also has its repercusions on a person's soul, apart from feeling "used".
I wonder if corruption (the kind that affects its citizens at a grassroot level) has reduced in India, since 10 years ago?
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:11 pm
by VWbuggy78
Just curious - what are the instances when you personally had to deal with corruption or bribes? Or is it just hear say seeing Indian movies or TV serials?
I have lived here for two years. Haven't had any reason to bribe.
There are small instances - cops caught me a few times for speeding. It is a few hundred rupees of fine with a receipt. May be they expect me to bribe. But just because they expect something, I don't have to. I usually pay the full fine and get a receipt.
With all the transfer of residence stuff I brought in, I was expecting a few lakhs in duties. I legally paid under Rs 50k.
Most stuff that the law asks for is very reasonable. If you don't want to get special treatment, you don't have to bribe.
For things such as gas connection, RTO, telephones etc, there is no bribe involved.
On a day to day basis, the chances of running in to any situation which will put you ill at ease is close to zero.
A vast majority of Indians (over 99%) are honest. In some instances, the postman or the EB guy may expect a tip. But this is not a bribe even according FCPA (Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which US citizens who do business in India should be aware of). If you pay a small sum to a lowly official for things that would have got done anyway, that is not a bribe. Bribe is something that is a high amount for making someone do something he normally would not have done otherwise (e.g. such as a cop letting you off). But an EB guy who fixes your fuse, getting a tip of a hundred rupees is not unethical or illegal.
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:41 pm
by Chicago Desi
Does Gandhigiri work? Are there any organizations that take up corruption as an issue and fight for individuals? Are they successful? Do they have political influence?
If not, then I see a role for an internet forum to fight corruption in India, a craiglist of corruption in India. People can anonymously post their experiences, and once there are enough people complaning about certain corrupt individuals, do a PIL or ask for info under the RTI (Right To Information) act. Rope a few high profile social activists and clean poiliticans, lawyers and human rights activitists, and voila, you have a full fledged formula to fight this disease.
This can potentially become a very powerful forum.
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:35 am
by luv2fly
Corruption in India can be fought. I am part of an organization called 5th pillar that is precisely helping people do it. Visit the website
www.5thpillar.org for more details.
I had a problem with the EB and filed an RTI application with the help of this org and had my issue resolved with spending 0 paise as bribe.
The organization has been widely covere by he Indian press ( Hindu, Indian express etc) and by the international press ( BBC, CNN-IBN etc).
Their website document several success stories.
I plan to actively do my part by volunteering for this organization when I R2I.
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:24 am
by DosaiLvr
Just curious - what are the instances when you personally had to deal with corruption or bribes? Or is it just hear say seeing Indian movies or TV serials?
The anecdotes of one or all the members in this forum will not really tell us much about corruption.
Opinions are formed based on a no. of factors including personal exp., experiences of those whom we know (1st degree) or trust, media (including Serial and Movies), studies/articles published by one or more trusted org.
In the case of India, one could safely assume that corruption exists to a large extent.
****************
How many of us have never been exposed/witnessed to corruption (bribe, nepotism, cheating, etc.) in India?
****************
Who is typically exposed to corruption (the practitioner as well those subject to it) more than others?
My guess would be the:
a) The poor
b) The uninformed, illiterate
c) The meek and weak
d) Those who are bending/breaking the law
e) Those who break the law *AND* do not want to *OR* have the means to pay penalities
f) Those w/ low ethics or don't clearly understand it in a given situation
h) Many gov. employees
i) Businesses
j) More often than not, while engaging in RE deals
k) etc., etc.
As one falls less and less in the above set, his/her exposure to corruption (at the receiving end) begins to diminish.
Corruption in India: Fight it or Live with it?
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:58 am
by r2iedhappy
In my view corruption is third most worrisome thing in India after crime and accidents...may be these are inter-related too.
I think it has reduced in some areas since 10 yrs. back ..mostly because of automation and growth ..for example buying tickets (trains, movies etc), rashion kerosene,banking services etc.
But most people deal with it on day-to-day basis..if you don't want to take fighting corruption as a full time job .. learn to live with it..of course whenever possible don't encourage it but it's not worth making life (yours and your families) difficult ..sometimes it is much more.
Now, paying small amt of money to postman,guards might be just called "tip" and not "bribe"..but if you don't pay chances are you won't get the "normal" service expected of them (the price is too high..important mails missing or your kids are not as well looked after while playing). Maintennace folks expect a reward (on top of whatever you have to pay normally)otherwise don't expect them to show up as quickly next time ..of course amt of reward is directly proportaional to promptness ..same goes for you gas cyliner delivery.
Evenif you are willing to pay fine per law sometimes you are better off paying the "bribe"..I'll give an example...our car was stopped in a different state whle vacationing because "passenger was not wearing seat belt"..I would have been very happy to pay the fine ..but they wanted to tow the vehicle to police station, keep the license for "some" (unspecified) time and we would have to "extend" our stay to take care of this ..the whole family would have been stranded on the road for god know how long in peak summer...it's your call ..fight or give in. They do it mostly to "out of state" vehicles to make money who can't afford to spend time sorting these out.
my 2 paisa. others may have a different experience.