r2i forum

tejasvee;45843

The issue concerns us all, and should be taken up as Indians, without getting entangled in party lines and political games. The Ram Setu or Adam's Bridge belongs to all humanity, being an important heritage site; hence the government should not allow it to become another issue affecting Hindu sensitivities. Nobody is opposing the Sethu Samudram Project, only a realignment of the route is being asked, as the present one destroys the Ram [/quote]

Without prejudice to my position, let me make some observations.

When I read "heritage site", the UNESCO Heritage list comes to mind. To my knowledge the UNESCO heritage sites do not include Ram Setu. Whether it should be included or not is a different issue. And comparison with historical sites such as Qutub Minar or Taj Mahal, at least to me makes not much sense. There are many shoal bridges, barrier islands and sand bars around the world.

Lastly, I am not sure if "destruction" is being proposed - what is being proposed is that a maximum of 0.63% (less than 1%) of the chain of shoals be dredged and in many areas for only four more metres and in some areas upto 12 metres deep.

Leaving 99.37% of the bridge untouched can hardly be termed destruction.

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List of World Heritage sites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Asia_and_Australasia

[edit] Sri Lanka


Site #202: Ancient City of Sigiriya (Sri Lanka).

Ancient City of Polonnaruwa

Ancient City of Sigiriya

Golden Temple of Dambulla

Old Town of Galle and its Fortifications

Sacred City of Anuradhapura

Sacred City of Kandy

Sinharaja Forest Reserve

[edit] India


The Majestic Kandariya Mahadev Temple at The Khajuraho group of Temples

Agra Fort, Uttar Pradesh

Ajanta Caves, Maharashtra

Buddhist Monuments at Sanchi, Madhya Pradesh

Champaner-Pavagadh Archaeological Park, Gujurat

Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, Maharashtra

Churches and Convents of Goa

Elephanta Caves, Maharashtra

Ellora Caves, Maharashtra

Fatehpur Sikri, Uttar Pradesh

Great Living Chola Temples, Tamil Nadu

Group of Monuments at Hampi, Karnataka

Group of Monuments at Mahabalipuram, Tamil Nadu

Group of Monuments at Pattadakal, Karnataka

Humayun's Tomb, Delhi

Kaziranga National Park, Assam

Keoladeo National Park, Rajasthan

Khajuraho Group of Monuments, Madhya Pradesh

Mahabodhi Temple Complex, Bihar

Manas Wildlife Sanctuary, Assam

Mountain Railways of India

Nanda Devi and Valley of Flowers National Park, Uttaranchal

Qutub Minar and its monuments, Delhi

Rock Shelters of Bhimbetka, Madhya Pradesh

Red Fort, New Delhi

Konark Sun Temple, Orissa

Sundarbans National Park, West Bengal

Taj Mahal, Uttar Pradesh

Desi;45847Leaving 99.37% of the bridge untouched can hardly be termed destruction.
[/quote]

Desi:

I disagree fully. When it comes to matters of faith, there is no percentage computation. Either you leave the bridge intact or destroy it.

Why is then the same era governments in India are spending additional tax payer money to protect 100% of other faith monuments? Couldn't they have touched 0.5% of these structures too?
http://10venu05.blogspot.com/2007/07/mumbai-flyover-diverted-to-protect-haji.html

tejasvee;45892Desi:

I disagree fully. When it comes to matters of faith, there is no percentage computation. Either you leave the bridge intact or destroy it.

Why is then the same era governments in India are spending additional tax payer money to protect 100% of other faith monuments? Couldn't they have touched 0.5% of these structures too?
http://10venu05.blogspot.com/2007/07/mumbai-flyover-diverted-to-protect-haji.html[/quote]

Seems like you are equating a natural structure to a monument. The fact of the matter is that a natural structure is not a monument, not in my book at least.

You put up a Pravin Togadiya statement - do you have anything more credible that shows millions of dollars will be lost in fuel by diverting Worli Bandra bridge?or have anything more to show what what diversion actually took place (hint - check MSRDC webiste and Bandra Worli sealink project website).

I studied the map of the Bandra Worli Sealink project, I do not know if you did. Makes perfect sense to me the way it is set up and I hail from Bombay.

Why should Haji Ali which is a monument built by humans and of religious significance should be touched when it does not need to be touched and yes even 0.01%. If there is no necessity, then no need to.

Should Ram Setu be touched? That is an argument and discussion in itself. Only Pravin Togadias will bring in other Muslim structures irrelevant in such a discussion then arguing this on its own merits. There is so much more that I could contest in that Pravin Togadia statement but then I would be giving too much importance to Pravin.

Desi;45847
Leaving 99.37% of the bridge untouched can hardly be termed destruction.
[/quote]

Fully agree. But now it has become a political issue and we will have to wait for BJP rule to finally undertake this project and do it clandestinely :emsmile:

tejasvee;45843 Why is the current government so much careless when it comes to Hindu faith? Why can't alternates be selected to accomplish the shorter ship distance, yet preserve the bridge which is the basis of hundreds of millions of Hindus' faith? [/quote]

Which alternates? I have seen statements about their being five alternates, but not seen one presented yet. Perhaps I did not research hard enough and would be interested to see what the alternates are, perhas dredging a canal through land from East to West through the mountains and hills and get a ship across. One that rivals the Panama Canal by a magnitude and one that has no business case and not techoligcally feasible.

As to faith of Hindus, sure. That is how they should argue their point and focus on that. As to reality of that faith, I am not so sure if Ram Setu has been worshipped in any way, seems more like a politics to me here.

[quote]
The Ram Setu or Adam's Bridge connects India's Rameshwaram to Sri Lanka's Talaimannar. A movement has begun to safeguard it at the shores of Rameshwaram on April 18. Two former judges of the Supreme Court, Justice K T Thomas and Justice V R Krishna Iyer, none of them close to the saffron side, have warned the government against destroying the Ram Setu.
[/quote]

The statements of judges can hardly be construed as warnings and neither do they have a standing to issue warnings, Nor do they have credentials to assess and that is why the statement of former justice Iyer uses the word "IF". The veracity of the scientific paper he mentions has not been stated to be one way or other by anyone here in this forum - who authored the paper and what scientific grounds does it state. I think even Tad Murthy started back peddling.


Text of the letter from Judge Iyer,
Most respected Prime Minister,

I write this letter a little too late but its importance and the gravity of the consequences involved persuade me to think that I should address you better late than never. The subject must have already been within your attention and is known as Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project. If the enclosed paper states the facts with scientific objectivity and national anxiety, my appeal to you is to stop building any bridge or other construction, an action hostile to the nation and its swaraj. Our nation will be weaker and may suffer new dangers with Ameircan presence in the Sethusamudram waters by doing what for centuries has never been considered necessary or feasible or in any manner advantageous to us, the people of India. In the name of India, i.e. Bharat, and appealing to your patriotic statesmanship I beseech you to reconsider the stand taken, if any already on this point. This is a matter of a political party business or popularity or pro-American yen. I hope you will give great thought as the Executive Head of India to the grave issue implied in the enclosed paper and with which the nation shall define its survival.

An appeal is hardly a warning.

Those excerpts you posted misrepresent an appeal as a warning. That in itself is sufficient to disregard the article as unobjective but biases which colors the statements made therein.

This is a matter of a political party business or popularity or pro-American yen.

How did this judge reach these conclusions? Has this made the ruling party popular? Why is this "pro- American yen"?

No, this judge is not unbiased as claimed.

I hope you will give great thought as the Executive Head of India to the grave issue implied in the enclosed paper and with which the nation shall define its survival.

Nation's survival? Are you kidding me, judge? or areyou putting your credibility at stake?

[quote]It is ironical that a government which changes the metro rail route to protect the Qutub Minar, built with the material of destroyed temples, stops a corridor to protect the Taj Mahal's surroundings and spends crores of rupees to showcase ancient potteries and jewellery in heavily guarded museums, is destroying a unique symbol of national identity and an icon well preserved in our minds since ages. [/quote]

The comparison is not apt. Besides any argument to preserve Ram Setu should be done on its own merits. I could spend time to explain why Qutub Minar or Tajmahal or Khajuraho, etc should not be tampered with but then that is not the point here. When the proponents of "save Ram Setu" go in all directions from Worli Bridge to Taj Mahal, one wonders how strong an argument they have for Ram Setu.

[quote]Even a child knows that a bridge was built by the friends of Lord Rama using floating stones and Rama's army marched over it to Lanka to rescue Sita and destroy the evil regime of Ravana.[/quote]

I absolutely agree, even I believe Hanuman, band of monkeys and squirrels moved thousands of tons of sand 1.7 million years back and built the bridge.

Perhaps, the author should research dredging of pentwater lake canal to Lake Michigan or dredging of the mouth of red sea and how quickly the sand builds up.

[quote]Hence during Dussehra every year and in dance dramas depicting Rama's life enacted across the globe, specially in East Asia, they never ever fail to mention the Setu Bandhan or the construction of Rama's bridge. [/quote]

Probably true. The only thing I remember of dussehra is the blowing up of an efficy of Ravana, but hey that was fun. In any case, sure there are many mythological stories enacted across the world, some with religious significance and others without.

[quote]Apart from the Ramayana, the Mahabharata also refers to the continued protection of Nala Setu following Sri Rama's command. Kalidasa's Raghuvamsham also refers to the Setu. So does the Skanda Purana (III 1.2.1-114), the Vishnu Purana (IV 4.40-49), the Agni Purana (V-XI), the Brahma Purana (138.1-40).[/quote]

The mention is also made by various books on geography, so what? Or is the case that mahabharata demands that it be preserved and therefore we must?

[quote]That is the memory so beautifully adopted by the Geological Survey of India in its logo, which describes India in this line etched at the bottom of its insignia -- Aasetu Himachal, meaning India is spread between the Bridge and the Himalayas. That is the Ram Setu Bridge on the southern tip of our motherland, an identity of the nation, under destruction now.[/quote]

This seems like an emotional argument. I do not call 0.63% as destruction.
(Oh, BTW, I checked the logo of GSI with 400% zoom and could not find the words mentioned above, so if you can post the logo that has that or a link to it will be great for information. I did go to GSI website).

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[quote]
The issue concerns us all, and should be taken up as Indians, without getting entangled in party lines and political games. The Ram Setu or Adam's Bridge belongs to all humanity, being an important heritage site; hence the government should not allow it to become another issue affecting Hindu sensitivities. Nobody is opposing the Sethu Samudram Project, only a realignment of the route is being asked, as the present one destroys the Ram Setu.
[/quote]

I already made my comments re "heritage site" in an earlier post.

What is this realignment? Can you shed more light on this or a link that explains this realignment?

RaReSha3;45992The benefits/mishaps of SSPC are not fully understood as the bloated revenue estimations do not take into account the increased time for other voyages like Kolkatta-Mauritius and other Africa-Europe originated/bound ships and the revised tariffs nor do they take into account the environmental impact. [/quote]

Why would Kolkatta - Mauritius trip be affected negatively or Europe bound ships?

[quote]Also railways provide alternative transportation for Cargo already from EastCoast to WestCoast and this project is not the only alternative. [/quote]

Despite having railways today, container ships, oil tankers, cruise ships et al are needed and in use today. The canal provides a savings in their fuel costs.

[quote]This project has balooned from when it was proposed first from 500 crores to the current 2500 crores. Knowing how govt. funded projects work in India, we cannot underestimate the middleman's percentage and state's vested interest in moving this project forward.[/quote]

Most all govt projects in India have middleman and many palms need to be greased. As to project costs, yes, they ballon and is not unique to this project.
As to cost estimate being 500 crores when initially proposed, I am curious when was that - meaning which years ruppees are we comparing to currently inflated ruppes.

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[quote]1.If the ruling govt. allows project to go forward, VHP Hindutvavadis will use this as yet another act of minority appeasement wherein reality most of the losers of this project will be fishermen due to the impact on marine life and pollution, majority of them belong to poor Dalits and Muslims in coastal areas and not upper cast Hindus.[/quote]

If just a 10 metres by 10 metres trench is dug, we will probably shoo away some fish and harm some corals on the sea bed in that 100 Sq. mts of area.
Indian Ocean is 68 Million sq. Kms (= 68000 billion sq Mts) in area. Do you have any specific references that you can point that are credible papers on impact to marine life and fishermen.

My lay person's knowledge says it is much hullaballo about nothing. Just look out the window and imagine what 300 metres is in a vast ocean.

[quote]3.Since Indian govt. has allowed and will continue to allow religion based appeasements, it should seek the alternative way of moving forward with the project with panel of experts from neutral spectrum with emphasis on real numbers on revenue and environmental issues. Let's see how the VHP spins this development. [/quote]

I agree with this. An environmental impact assesment report should have been made public (don't know if they did such a report and if they made one public), but such a report should be in public arena.