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IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:36 am
by bengal_tiger
Based on the recent supreme court decision on reservations, it seems to me that the days of IITs and IIMs as elite educational institutions in India are numbered. In particular:
1) IITs and IIMs have been unable to attract world class faculty. The quality of faculty intake is fair as best, other than a few dedicated souls who keep these institutions alive. Politics amongst faculty is bad and not very different from any other government institution. There is a stark difference in pay between faculty salary and market rates in the private sector for similar backgrounds. The new pay commission has applied a band-aid on an amputation.
2) Government meddling: Autonomy is only on paper. With the newly announced quotas, the quality of incoming students will be further diluted. Plus, there is just too much intervention in policy making and day to day affairs: Ramadoss in AIIMS anybody?
3) The rise of the private sector: The International school of Business is a glowing example of what private education in India can do if left alone by the government. Within a few years, it is being counted in the world's top 20 business schools. The faculty are world class and are not paid a pittance. There are no reservations, admission is by merit. Just like the Ivy league schools in the US, we will probably see a new crop of private universities, engineering and medical schools which will attract and retain the best faculty, and admit students based on merit only.
Having studied at an IIT, I don't feel too good about my own predictions, but the writing is all over the wall. These premier national institutions are slipping into second place, thanks to our government. Comments?
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:50 am
by shreekarthik
Private Sector.... When VP Singh implemented Mandal Commission, one wise man told me that whatever be the % of reservation, it may not matter because the days of Govt. jobs are over. Market forces forced the country to open up and the result is for all to see. From telecom to IT services majority of job openings are the result of private entrepreneurship where reservation is nill.
Similarly IITs and IIMs will die a natural death and may be its good for the country. Govt. claims that it is levelling the field but in actual realty the field has just shifted. Quality education is not in IIT or IIM but in private sector colleges and institutions.... Nothing wrong in their death.
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:55 am
by Bobus
Where do IITs derive their reputation primarily from? Students admitted via a competitive JEE - I dont see a threat to this source unless better institutions emerge in India at comparable cost to student. With the new quota, the quality (talent) of students may even be enhanced.
Regarding AIIMS, I suggest typing "venugopal" as keyword to search for threads and then diving into appropriate thread to see if he behaved as saint.
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:40 am
by ananthd
I agree with Bobus #3...
Most faculty at IITs/IIMs don't do world class research...
They do research, that's it...
It's the students that make it(especially the IITs), what they are...
Given the draconian nature of the JEE, shrinking the pool will lead to even better applicants...
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:57 am
by VS007
Bobus;94513 Students admitted via a competitive JEE - I dont see a threat to this source unless better institutions emerge in India at comparable cost to student. With the new quota, the quality (talent) of students may even be enhanced.
Can you please explain how quota enhances the quality of students?
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:05 am
by bengal_tiger
Bobus;94513Where do IITs derive their reputation primarily from? Students admitted via a competitive JEE - I dont see a threat to this source unless better institutions emerge in India at comparable cost to student. With the new quota, the quality (talent) of students may even be enhanced.
Regarding AIIMS, I suggest typing "venugopal" as keyword to search for threads and then diving into appropriate thread to see if he behaved as saint.[/quote]
The highlighted statement is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Let me explain. Assume that an IIT takes 100 students, each student has a merit weighed on a scale of 0 to 1. Let us assume that an average student has a merit of 0.5. So the total merit of 100 students is 50. Now, you take 50 average (0.5) students from the general quota and 50 from SC/ST/OBC. The only way the total merit would go up (say to 55) is if the merit of the 50 students coming in through reservation is higher (0.6 in this case).
This is probable, but extremely unlikely. If the average merit of the group needing reservation was higher (0.6 above), they would simply be able to compete through the normal admission process and would not need reservation. So, it would not be an overstatement if I say that the average quality of students will go down.
Now, it is definitely not as cut and dry as it sounds above. The "quality" of students is not an easy thing to measure. The IIT/IIM brand names have been made because of careful student intake. So, it will probably take ten more years before the quality of the new intake can be assessed based on how they perform. Any brand dilution will kick in at the same time. However, don't make the assumption that the remaining 50% (general category) will be even better and will drag the average up. That would only be true if:
1) Good students have nowhere else to go. One of the reasons why BITS Pilani has become such a great success story is that for a long time, they didn't have reservations. Students have many more avenues to private education today.
2) Good faculty has nowhere else to go. Private schools will pay more and attract the best faculty. It is already happening.
The government's stranglehold on education will soon be over, and ironically, the government itself will precipitate that.
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:21 am
by shreekarthik
bengal_tiger;94529
The government's stranglehold on education will soon be over, and ironically, the government itself will precipitate that.[/quote]
Isn't that a good thing ?
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:29 am
by bengal_tiger
shreekarthik;94533Isn't that a good thing ?[/quote]
May be. Remember that private education has a high price tag because there are no subsidies. So, a lot of poor and meritorious students would be left out by the government (general category), and they wouldn't be able to afford private education. A good mix of private and government institutions is the answer. If you took at the US, there is the ivy league and then the public ivies. We can only hope that something like that develops in India.
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:52 am
by Bobus
VS and Bengal Tiger:
When I refered to merit, in parentheses, I typed a word - can you read it? Did you?
VS: We have gone over the merit-talent discussion earlier in MSN forum. What do you recall?
Bengal Tiger:
Rank in JEE is a function of merit and other factors. It aint the same as merit.
Disadvantaged groups face adverse other factors. With these adversities, if a person from such a group gets the same JEE rank as another who is not from such a group, who do you think has more merit? In large groups, other noise is expected to wash out.
IITs and IIMs: A deathblow?
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:31 am
by bengal_tiger
Bobus;94563
Rank in JEE is a function of merit and other factors. It aint the same as merit.
Disadvantaged groups face adverse other factors. With these adversities, if a person from such a group gets the same JEE rank as another who is not from such a group, who do you think has more merit? In large groups, other noise is expected to wash out.[/quote]
Bobus: I am totally lost. I don't even think you know how the system works. When I had a JEE rank (long time ago), people who got admitted under quotas did not have a JEE rank unless they chose to be a part of the common merit list. Most chose to be a part of the reserved category merit list and were given SC/ST ranks. So, you never have an apples to apples comparison in that case. I did know one or two people who could have taken advantage of the reserved quotas, but chose to apply in the general category and had a JEE rank. In my opinion, they definitely had more merit than me and to this day, I respect them for what they did. But such candidates are more the exception than the rule. Here is a link for you with some recent numbers:
http://www.goiit.com/posts/list/community-shelf-iitjee-2007-some-facts-39230.htm
I won't get into semantics about Merit and Talent, simply because I don't have so much time to waste. With your guidance, I was able to read the word inside the parentheses, my conclusion is still unchanged: With an increased quota system, the day the quality of students in the IITs/IIMs improves as you stated, I will book my ski-trip to perdition, it would have definitely frozen over...