r2i forum

Well.... there had not been a pointed kwestin/answer thread on this matter of Money. What sort of professional makes how much ? [skip those cash-only professions...and] contribute your views on what training+experience+skill sets can fetch you what range of money, either in India, or in some other country..... in a profession....

A member asked that for the medical professionals.....who practice in the USA

nehad;587671.........
I might be asking a personal question; so if you do not consider this appropriate - you can choose to not answer. But I always thought that medicine is 1 profession where the pay gap between US and India is significantly higher. I thought that doctors in US (MD with specialization eg. opthalomology, dermatology, neurology, etc) make a LOT of money in the US. goes from $500K to a $1 Million dollar for an average to above average specialized doctors in the US after 10 years of experience (lets say in their early / mid 40's).
However in India; from what I hear the same profile of people make far far less (max of 1 crore - and even that may be exceptions).
That is a significant salary difference. I am not saying that salary/money should prevent one from R2I; but assuming that other reasons of R2I are not that strong; the salary difference between US and India for doctors is very high (or atleast that's what I thought).

Can you tell me if the numbers that I mentioned above ($500K to $1 Million) versus max of Rs. 1 crore are valid numbers (both for US and for India) for someone with 10 to 15 years experience after graduation from medical school? (Again I know that this is a subjective question ---- but I am doing some broad general comparisons to get a rough magnitude.

I think that with such a big differnce - doctors would typically never R2I if there were no other very strong drivers. Please help correct me where am I wrong with the info that I have mentioned above.

http://img.medscape.com/pi/features/slideshow-slide/compensation/2014/public/overview/fig2.jpg

Doctors in USA:


Private practice: I have worked with Internal Medicine, Intervention Cardiologist, General Surgeon and Nephrologist.

A single Internal medicine guy cannot go beyond $500K to $600K. This is when he is working 13-14 hours a day with office/hospital/nursing home.
If he employs NPs and PAs and MDs then he will grow by $100K to $250K for each person employed.

An ethical intervention cardiologist, if he is busy and keeps his relationships with IMs then he can make couple of million. I have one who does not want to grow beyond half a million.

A general surgeon with a strong office management can make a million else he will lose money.

A nephrologist working 7 days a week 10-12 hours a day can reach $900K to a million by himself.


If comparing to an Indian doctor(whose compensations I do not know) then 1 crore is quite comparable to a private practice of a US doc if you take PPP.

Hyd

PS I have a medical billing practice for last 11 years and embarking on a new business venture from January.

Hyderabadi;587785Doctors in USA:


Private practice: I have worked with Internal Medicine, Intervention Cardiologist, General Surgeon and Nephrologist.

A single Internal medicine guy cannot go beyond $500K to $600K. This is when he is working 13-14 hours a day with office/hospital/nursing home.
If he employs NPs and PAs and MDs then he will grow by $100K to $250K for each person employed.

An ethical intervention cardiologist, if he is busy and keeps his relationships with IMs then he can make couple of million. I have one who does not want to grow beyond half a million.

A general surgeon with a strong office management can make a million else he will lose money.

A nephrologist working 7 days a week 10-12 hours a day can reach $900K to a million by himself.


If comparing to an Indian doctor(whose compensations I do not know) then 1 crore is quite comparable to a private practice of a US doc if you take PPP.

Hyd

PS I have a medical billing practice for last 11 years and embarking on a new business venture from January.

I do not think those numbers represent most doctors. I think medscape survey compensation is more accurate for most physicians in US. There are physicians who make close to 1 million but as mentioned their quality of life sucks and they works 12-14 hours a day for 7 days.

Only Interventional cardiology probably makes it closer to that mark in "Medicinal" branches and that too with crazy hours. The medical practice in US is undergoing a paradigm shift. The private practices are vanishing or struggling with high overheads and low reimbursements through insurances. Most physicians are merging with corporate world with bigger hospital systems unless they are in smaller ~2 hours to major city places.

I also feel docs in India are making much more once they established if you consider PPP in absolute money terms. It is not uncommon in India to make "official" 50-70 lakhs, which translate into close to 1 million dollar by PPP conversion. It is not that common in US.

Docs in India generally work much more in my opinion and struggle in initial phase but do well after initial phase.

Just as medscape does, as in post #1, every professional organization does an annual salary survey. This is used in High School career counseling sessions. What sorts of training/education would lead to what sorts of earnings. Discussions of what are the pros and cons of each profession would ensue. Quality of life concerns (totally awesome versus I'd hate it ) would come up and get addressed as well.

Here is another professional organization and their salary survey. For those who get a Science degree in Chemistry and find non-academic (industry) employment. One would note that the survey is detailed -- gender, citizenship (naturalized citizens make the most money !), employer type etc.. etc... are measured as well.

http://cen.acs.org/articles/91/i38/2013-Salaries-Employment.html

Parents may go to the appropriate professional organization's website and see what sorts of futures are feasible for children interested in whatever course of study.

Here is a composite from the National Assoc of Colleges and Universities in the USA... Engineers do better -- on the average -- than any other profession.

see page 4 for a general range of each type of degree/occupation:

http://www.naceweb.org/uploadedFiles/Content/static-assets/downloads/executive-summary/2014-april-salary-survey-executive-summary.pdf

Your comment below that 50-70 lakhs in India translates close to 1 million dollar by PPP conversion is not true. With the way costs have been rising in India over the last several years; it is no longer true that salary of Rs. 1 crore has PPP with salary of $1 million. Rule of thumb is about 60% of US salary in India is considered at par. So for $1 million US salary (which is 6 crore rupees); a person has to make about 60% of that which is 3.6 crore. Now we know that 3.6 crore is not a feasible number for most doctors in India. That was the whole purpose of my post.

If good doctors in US make a million dollars; and even if a good doctor in India makes 1 crore; that is no-where close. And what I am reading is that making 1 crore in India is not easy even for very good speailist surgeons in India (I may be wrong here - hence was trying to get an answer).

Even if you say that $1 million is too high and only few specialists in US make that much; lets halve it. $500K. that is definitely something that LOT of good specialist doctors make in US. But from a ppp point of view 1 crore will not even come close to $500K.

Hence my question as to why are doctors choosing to come to India from US? Now I totally understand the non-financial reasons for R2I; and I respect that.

But the salary difference is very large in medical field. For IT - the salary gap in India versus US has been bridged quite a bit; and hence it makes sense for IT professionals to R2I (even from a finance point of view). But I am surprised when a doctor relocates to India because financially they are giving up a lot. (again I respect people's non-financial reasons to R2I; and if that is the choice that they have made; lot of power to them.)

I am trying to reconcile these numbers for specialist doctors; and wanted to know if my number if 1 crore for a good medical specialist in India was low. Do good specialist doctors in India make more than a crore?

netizen11;587826

I also feel docs in India are making much more once they established if you consider PPP in absolute money terms. It is not uncommon in India to make "official" 50-70 lakhs, which translate into close to 1 million dollar by PPP conversion. It is not that common in US.

Docs in India generally work much more in my opinion and struggle in initial phase but do well after initial phase.

Do good specialist doctors in India make more than a crore?

much more than a crore for orhto, surgical onc, medical onc, many such hot specialities.

Thans a lot rajradio. That is exactly what I wanted to confirm. I kept hearing from folks that good specialist doctors make about 30 to 40 lakh on average and in very very rare cases to go upto a crore. That just seemed incorrect especially when I hear that doctors are relocating from US (again with all due respect to doctors who R2I primarily for non-finance reasons). My conviction was simple - if the pay gap is very very very wide between US and India for doctors; they might decide to not R2I (until and unless there are some very strong reasons in India.) But if the pay gap is shrikinng (as it has been in IT); more and more doctors could look at moving back to India. Your response below confirms my suspicion that what I was hearing about doctor salaries in India being low to be incorrect.

Thanks a lot

rajradio;587862Do good specialist doctors in India make more than a crore?

much more than a crore for orhto, surgical onc, medical onc, many such hot specialities.

Rich-and-unhappy versus poor-and-unhappy aren't the only alternatives.
There are a lot of nice middle grounds. One could be an accountant, a CPA, and be happy watching-and-helping unhappy rich people.

An undergrad degree in business (aka B.Com. in India) followed by some grim low level employment to save money to do an MBA. And then pass that CPA exam and then enjoy the misery of monied people.

Member rajradio had often implied that purgatory is working in Omaha, NB, in a highly lucrative occupation and being thoroughly unhappy about the waste of his valuable life. When you can earn a lot, but cannot spend the lucre in manners you'd like to spend it, then you might as well be earning beads, sea-shells and as the generic Indian name goes.... wampum.

Meme, Culture, Belongingness, and the like are the things that make what you earn in any occupation, meaningful. Dollar, Euro, Yen, Ringitt, Riyal, Dinar etc.. are not relevant. If you like a steak or a masala dosa and willing to put down top-dollar (excuser the xpression) for it, can you get it where you earn ? When you can, life is wonderful. When you cannot, well... you are frittering away the limited time you'd been allowed on this stage. That is all there is to it.

Any other salary survey information ? How about the trades... plumbers, fitters, millwrights, anthropologists, economists, statisticians, or even naturalists ?

(P.S. This is a post to introduce the word Wampum to the Indians.... viz. the desis. I write this, precisely because, very often, there is a wonderment as to what is the meaning of all this... that member okonomi posts )

The questions on salary have nothing to do with rich or poor; or happy or unhappy. They are just questions. nothing more. totally agreed that money need not buy happiness. never debated that. the only goal of the question was to get some info on doctor salaries in US and doctor salaries in India. Nothing more than that. If money is one of the factors one wants to consider for R2I; there is nothing wrong in that. It does not apply that other factors are less important. We have a lot of info on this forum on IT salaries in US and in India; but not as much on specialist doctor salaries in US and in India. I was curious about it. Hence asked the question. That's it.

okonomi;587882Rich-and-unhappy versus poor-and-unhappy aren't the only alternatives.
There are a lot of nice middle grounds. One could be an accountant, a CPA, and be happy watching-and-helping unhappy rich people.

An undergrad degree in business (aka B.Com. in India) followed by some grim low level employment to save money to do an MBA. And then pass that CPA exam and then enjoy the misery of monied people.

Member rajradio had often implied that purgatory is working in Omaha, NB, in a highly lucrative occupation and being thoroughly unhappy about the waste of his valuable life. When you can earn a lot, but cannot spend the lucre in manners you'd like to spend it, then you might as well be earning beads, sea-shells and as the generic Indian name goes.... wampum.

Meme, Culture, Belongingness, and the like are the things that make what you earn in any occupation, meaningful. Dollar, Euro, Yen, Ringitt, Riyal, Dinar etc.. are not relevant. If you like a steak or a masala dosa and willing to put down top-dollar (excuser the xpression) for it, can you get it where you earn ? When you can, life is wonderful. When you cannot, well... you are frittering away the limited time you'd been allowed on this stage. That is all there is to it.

Any other salary survey information ? How about the trades... plumbers, fitters, millwrights, anthropologists, economists, statisticians, or even naturalists ?

(P.S. This is a post to introduce the word Wampum to the Indians.... viz. the desis. I write this, precisely because, very often, there is a wonderment as to what is the meaning of all this... that member okonomi posts )