Last month couple friends at the water cooler diagnosed my lack of spiritual awareness as a result of not having a spiritual leader. With out seeking the help of a spiritual leader with elevated levels of mental abilities, I would never be able to get to the "eternal truth".
Dog honest questions....
Is spiritual awareness an in born/genetic human ability, or can it be something one can learn?
If I have an open mind, who would be a renowned spiritual leader? What about Baba Rampuri? http://rampuri.com/
How long does it take to get to the eternal truth? Can I simply read books to get to this truth? How big is this truth? Is this something one can know while still alive?
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
-
GutsyGibbon
- Posts: 1267
- Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:56 am
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
GutsyGibbon;355638Last month couple friends at the water cooler diagnosed my lack of spiritual awareness as a result of not having a spiritual leader. With out seeking the help of a spiritual leader with elevated levels of mental abilities, I would never be able to get to the "eternal truth".
What is external truth? You might be aware that science has proven wrong the so called "eternal truth" or part of it.
[quote]
Dog honest questions....
Is spiritual awareness an in born/genetic human ability, or can it be something one can learn?
If I have an open mind, who would be a renowned spiritual leader? What about Baba Rampuri? http://rampuri.com/
How long does it take to get to the eternal truth? Can I simply read books to get to this truth? How big is this truth? Is this something one can know while still alive?[/quote]
What purpose do you seek spirituality for? And, what is spirituality according to you?. One can become a sadhu on the banks of Ganges, do nothing and practise all kinds of yoga. Is that the kind of spirituality you are seeking?
Regarding the eternal truth, let us say, if we cannot find it ever, what are you going to do?
Added later:
If you seek spirituality for peace of mind, you should find some recreation activities, hobbies to relax your mind
For finding eternal truth, you should read the various philosophies of this world. At the end, you may still not find the truth... but at least you tried.
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
layman;355945What is external truth? You might be aware that science has proven wrong the so called "eternal truth" or part of it.[/quote]
You ask what, but follow up to state that it has been proven wrong. What is the eternal truth that science has proven wrong, full or in part?
Science makes no pretension about such things and doesn't go about trying to prove or disprove that which it makes no pretension about. Science doesn't try to prove God is wrong. Science doesn't know what is God.
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
boca2blr;355958You ask what, but follow up to state that it has been proven wrong. What is the eternal truth that science has proven wrong, full or in part?
Science makes no pretension about such things and doesn't go about trying to prove or disprove that which it makes no pretension about. Science doesn't try to prove God is wrong. Science doesn't know what is God.
I was not referring tp God per se. Eternal truth is not only about god. Eternal truth is a whole umbrella of qns for which we do not know the answer.
Science has disproved some of the religious explanations for these qns and that is what I meant that science has disproven eternal truth or part of it. One example is Darwin theory that disproves religion's theory of life.
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
GG:
Let me attempt to give some of my thoughts about your excellent questions. I admire you for putting through such honest & thought provoking questions. I will take a bit of extra time to type in my thoughts, factoring in the most recent experiences, so please take time to read though it carefully, before questioning further. I am just a regular software industry guy, taking the same middle class path to corporate system, so there's no structural backing in terms of scholarly education.
Per my best understanding, Spirituality (Adhyatma in Sanskrit) is the core around which Religion & Rituals (Dharma & Sampradaya) have been built. One can be spiritual with religion or without religious baggage. Many people struggle to grasp this as the 3rd line of conversation usually jumps to God. That's because of mostly the western philosophy or religious understanding and not the Eastern, particularly Vedanta schools of thoughts.
I am a spiritual person with equal interest in religious scriptural & religious ritual interest. My wife for instance is a much more deeper spiritual person, with great interest in scriptures, but not much in religious rituals. So right between us, on a daily basis I see an approach difference, but we have found peace in where to push & where to stop each other.
To some extent, I agree with those who say one is born with spiritual interest. Without taking this into a theist - atheist usual slippery slope, I would suggest more on the God Gene writings, particularly references in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
Regarding 'learning' part, I would say, it is more of a practicing or living aspect, not just learning. In my opinion, 9 out of 10 people who decide to live god-less lives, don't really try to 'live' a spiritual or religious (or both) lives. What I found out after years & years of pondering is that theory can only take you so far.. what matters is practicality. Let me elaborate.
After a dozen years in US, living a fast paced metro NY life, I am trying to understand the *real* India that is deeply rooted in spirituality & religion this year. For the first time in my life, I took deeksha & wore two malas (2 bead garlands of 108 beads each) & dark blue dress for Sabarimala pilgrimage. This morning when I took that 5.15 AM cold bath on a winter day, obviously my extremely shivering body and mind talked to each other:-
Shivering body: "do you really have to punish me for your religious quest"?.
Determined mind: "yes of course.. bare foot, cold bath, cooking your own food are part of this pilgrimage preparation. People do it for 41 rigorous days and thank yourself, 'you' are being punished only for a very short period. This is a part of living the life as a Swami (the genuine ones of course) or an ascetic. Too much cozy life wouldn't permit 'me' to focus on the ultimate truth, or paramatma" :))
Then at 6 AM, when the local Ayyappa temple pooja is happening, the 'Swami Sharanam' bhajans, with extremely devoted crowd of young, old, male & female devotees, just energized me. No caste/creed/class/profession bias what-so-ever. People were immersed in devotion to the Lord.
Determined mind: "Hey body.. I was telling you all along what unconditional devotion to the Lord is.. you screamed at me during cold bath or bare foot walk on street.. you keep reminding me on how torturous it would be to talk those 9 KM uphill on barefoot, in cold weather in Sabarimala mountain early next week. But now just observe for a minute how good 'I' am feeling as well as the minds of those around me"
Not-so-shivering body: "Agreed... If some discomfort to me, makes you peaceful, happy & realize briefly that you are that 'supreme energy of the universe', so be it.. after all 'I' am disposable temporary 'cover' for 'you'"
Why did I narrate this to you GG? To sum up that:-
1. Spirituality with or without religious baggage is something that one must experience. It's like sex & orgasm. No matter how much 'theory' one hears, its the different variations, settings, fitness levels & partners that help one 'get' it.
2. I strongly believe that every single one of us will experience divinity at some point in our lives. Some people experience a lot more often. If the universe exists without a 'purpose', then it is a damn waste of 'space' as a movie dialogue goes.
3. 'Learning' Spirituality is essentially learning how to experience oneself. What works for one may not work for another at all. It's OK to be a skeptic, but don't stop trying. You WILL find your real calling sooner or later.
4. All animals eat, mate, defend & sleep. If we humans don't explore the 5th front after all these evolutionary advantages, then what's the difference between us and primitive animals? We have been blessed with that intellect to not just make improvements for future generations in physical world via science & technology, but also to get back to where we came from.. our basics.. our core.. the divinity.
Frankly, this is not my expertise to suggest. I personally don't have any personal guru. Never had one. Whatever I explored & understood is based on teachings, thoughts & writings of various immensely talented & sharp minds like Vivekananda, Dayananda Saraswati (later one), Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Mahatma Gandhi, Wayne Dyer, Sukhabodananda, Carl Sagan, Adi Shankara, Madhva, Ramanuja, Srila Prabhupada & Chinmayananda kind.
If it was 2 years earlier, I would have suggested to PM Texmex member, whom I rated as one of the minds with greatest clarity in this forum when it comes to Spirituality.
So explore any of the names mentioned above, particularly Youtube videos of their discourses. You don't have anything to lose. You can just reject any particular aspect if it doesn't make sense. Listen with an intention to understand why they were so immensely popular with millions. Start with Dr. Wayne Dyer who is my all time top recommendation among the living spiritual philosophers. Remember, true spirituality cuts across religions, caste, class, race & belief systems.
Short answer: Lifelong quest. Per my latest understanding, by getting caught up in the physical world's maya, in this physical body, we may be lacking a few senses that help us connect with the real self or atman. That's coming from someone who is interested in Vedanta or Hindu group of philosophies. But I also believe, we can 'awaken' the hidden senses to try to reconnect with the true self. An involved topic for some other time.
Let me give you the meditation aspect of this exploration also. In Yoga, they talk about 7 chakras that are the most things for anyone who is deeply inquisitive about spirituality & meditation. Meditation is just one of the tools to explore spirituality. They advice a person to try to 'enhance' the consciousness from the lowest chakra to the highest & become a stita prajna or the most balanced mind. You, me and anyone else can become this, but for that exploration is necessary, not just reading.
You can explore it via karma (work), with devotion (bhakti), with physical exercise (Yoga), with jnana (knowledge exploration) or with tapas (meditation). There may be more options that I am not aware of.
The 'eternal truth' you are referring is basically paramatma per Vedanta. In a different (Christian or Muslim or Buddhist) school of thought, it could be defined as something else. Leaving aside the differences in methodologies, the common factor among all philosophies is that divinity exists. If divinity is like a sea, we are all drops of that sea. We have the exact same characteristics of the entire sea, in a minute form. Same thing with 'eternal truth' or paramatma and us the physical manifestations of that eternal truth, or jeevatmas.
Yes, while you try to listen or read initially, there will be a lot of overlaps. Trust, me I have my own set of skepticism, even though I never doubted the existence of paramatma. During the initial stages of exploration, you will be bombarded with questions in mind as to why certain elements of exploration have to be 'believed'. Don't question too soon. Give it a few weeks or months. Once you get a few levels down, then start looking back at your basic questions that would have stopped you from exploring at the beginning itself. It's like when we learnt calculus in college, we didn't get everything in the beginning. Some were 'assumptions', some were 'laws or theorems' and some were 'postulates'. Not everything makes sense in the beginning, but only after getting through secondary or tertiary levels, basic skepticism questions can be answered.
I have essentially typed my answer as the thoughts came through. This is not well organized, but hopefully you got a sense of where I am coming from. It doesn't mean, I am 'right' in all the things I wrote, but just giving a perception to someone who seemed very inquisitive about learning this topic. If you meet me in real life, I am just another dude from middle class, who enjoys motor bike riding now & used to love skiing black diamonds once upon a time :)
Hope it helped. Post your questions if any, that are specifically about personal experience in this thread. I will answer them after I am back from Sabarimala pilgrimage mid next week. Sharanam Swamiye Ayyappa :)
Let me attempt to give some of my thoughts about your excellent questions. I admire you for putting through such honest & thought provoking questions. I will take a bit of extra time to type in my thoughts, factoring in the most recent experiences, so please take time to read though it carefully, before questioning further. I am just a regular software industry guy, taking the same middle class path to corporate system, so there's no structural backing in terms of scholarly education.
GutsyGibbon;355638
Is spiritual awareness an in born/genetic human ability, or can it be something one can learn?
Per my best understanding, Spirituality (Adhyatma in Sanskrit) is the core around which Religion & Rituals (Dharma & Sampradaya) have been built. One can be spiritual with religion or without religious baggage. Many people struggle to grasp this as the 3rd line of conversation usually jumps to God. That's because of mostly the western philosophy or religious understanding and not the Eastern, particularly Vedanta schools of thoughts.
I am a spiritual person with equal interest in religious scriptural & religious ritual interest. My wife for instance is a much more deeper spiritual person, with great interest in scriptures, but not much in religious rituals. So right between us, on a daily basis I see an approach difference, but we have found peace in where to push & where to stop each other.
To some extent, I agree with those who say one is born with spiritual interest. Without taking this into a theist - atheist usual slippery slope, I would suggest more on the God Gene writings, particularly references in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
Regarding 'learning' part, I would say, it is more of a practicing or living aspect, not just learning. In my opinion, 9 out of 10 people who decide to live god-less lives, don't really try to 'live' a spiritual or religious (or both) lives. What I found out after years & years of pondering is that theory can only take you so far.. what matters is practicality. Let me elaborate.
After a dozen years in US, living a fast paced metro NY life, I am trying to understand the *real* India that is deeply rooted in spirituality & religion this year. For the first time in my life, I took deeksha & wore two malas (2 bead garlands of 108 beads each) & dark blue dress for Sabarimala pilgrimage. This morning when I took that 5.15 AM cold bath on a winter day, obviously my extremely shivering body and mind talked to each other:-
Shivering body: "do you really have to punish me for your religious quest"?.
Determined mind: "yes of course.. bare foot, cold bath, cooking your own food are part of this pilgrimage preparation. People do it for 41 rigorous days and thank yourself, 'you' are being punished only for a very short period. This is a part of living the life as a Swami (the genuine ones of course) or an ascetic. Too much cozy life wouldn't permit 'me' to focus on the ultimate truth, or paramatma" :))
Then at 6 AM, when the local Ayyappa temple pooja is happening, the 'Swami Sharanam' bhajans, with extremely devoted crowd of young, old, male & female devotees, just energized me. No caste/creed/class/profession bias what-so-ever. People were immersed in devotion to the Lord.
Determined mind: "Hey body.. I was telling you all along what unconditional devotion to the Lord is.. you screamed at me during cold bath or bare foot walk on street.. you keep reminding me on how torturous it would be to talk those 9 KM uphill on barefoot, in cold weather in Sabarimala mountain early next week. But now just observe for a minute how good 'I' am feeling as well as the minds of those around me"
Not-so-shivering body: "Agreed... If some discomfort to me, makes you peaceful, happy & realize briefly that you are that 'supreme energy of the universe', so be it.. after all 'I' am disposable temporary 'cover' for 'you'"
Why did I narrate this to you GG? To sum up that:-
1. Spirituality with or without religious baggage is something that one must experience. It's like sex & orgasm. No matter how much 'theory' one hears, its the different variations, settings, fitness levels & partners that help one 'get' it.
2. I strongly believe that every single one of us will experience divinity at some point in our lives. Some people experience a lot more often. If the universe exists without a 'purpose', then it is a damn waste of 'space' as a movie dialogue goes.
3. 'Learning' Spirituality is essentially learning how to experience oneself. What works for one may not work for another at all. It's OK to be a skeptic, but don't stop trying. You WILL find your real calling sooner or later.
4. All animals eat, mate, defend & sleep. If we humans don't explore the 5th front after all these evolutionary advantages, then what's the difference between us and primitive animals? We have been blessed with that intellect to not just make improvements for future generations in physical world via science & technology, but also to get back to where we came from.. our basics.. our core.. the divinity.
GutsyGibbon;355638If I have an open mind, who would be a renowned spiritual leader? What about Baba Rampuri? http://rampuri.com/
Frankly, this is not my expertise to suggest. I personally don't have any personal guru. Never had one. Whatever I explored & understood is based on teachings, thoughts & writings of various immensely talented & sharp minds like Vivekananda, Dayananda Saraswati (later one), Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Mahatma Gandhi, Wayne Dyer, Sukhabodananda, Carl Sagan, Adi Shankara, Madhva, Ramanuja, Srila Prabhupada & Chinmayananda kind.
If it was 2 years earlier, I would have suggested to PM Texmex member, whom I rated as one of the minds with greatest clarity in this forum when it comes to Spirituality.
So explore any of the names mentioned above, particularly Youtube videos of their discourses. You don't have anything to lose. You can just reject any particular aspect if it doesn't make sense. Listen with an intention to understand why they were so immensely popular with millions. Start with Dr. Wayne Dyer who is my all time top recommendation among the living spiritual philosophers. Remember, true spirituality cuts across religions, caste, class, race & belief systems.
GutsyGibbon;355638How long does it take to get to the eternal truth? Can I simply read books to get to this truth? How big is this truth? Is this something one can know while still alive?
Short answer: Lifelong quest. Per my latest understanding, by getting caught up in the physical world's maya, in this physical body, we may be lacking a few senses that help us connect with the real self or atman. That's coming from someone who is interested in Vedanta or Hindu group of philosophies. But I also believe, we can 'awaken' the hidden senses to try to reconnect with the true self. An involved topic for some other time.
Let me give you the meditation aspect of this exploration also. In Yoga, they talk about 7 chakras that are the most things for anyone who is deeply inquisitive about spirituality & meditation. Meditation is just one of the tools to explore spirituality. They advice a person to try to 'enhance' the consciousness from the lowest chakra to the highest & become a stita prajna or the most balanced mind. You, me and anyone else can become this, but for that exploration is necessary, not just reading.
You can explore it via karma (work), with devotion (bhakti), with physical exercise (Yoga), with jnana (knowledge exploration) or with tapas (meditation). There may be more options that I am not aware of.
The 'eternal truth' you are referring is basically paramatma per Vedanta. In a different (Christian or Muslim or Buddhist) school of thought, it could be defined as something else. Leaving aside the differences in methodologies, the common factor among all philosophies is that divinity exists. If divinity is like a sea, we are all drops of that sea. We have the exact same characteristics of the entire sea, in a minute form. Same thing with 'eternal truth' or paramatma and us the physical manifestations of that eternal truth, or jeevatmas.
Yes, while you try to listen or read initially, there will be a lot of overlaps. Trust, me I have my own set of skepticism, even though I never doubted the existence of paramatma. During the initial stages of exploration, you will be bombarded with questions in mind as to why certain elements of exploration have to be 'believed'. Don't question too soon. Give it a few weeks or months. Once you get a few levels down, then start looking back at your basic questions that would have stopped you from exploring at the beginning itself. It's like when we learnt calculus in college, we didn't get everything in the beginning. Some were 'assumptions', some were 'laws or theorems' and some were 'postulates'. Not everything makes sense in the beginning, but only after getting through secondary or tertiary levels, basic skepticism questions can be answered.
I have essentially typed my answer as the thoughts came through. This is not well organized, but hopefully you got a sense of where I am coming from. It doesn't mean, I am 'right' in all the things I wrote, but just giving a perception to someone who seemed very inquisitive about learning this topic. If you meet me in real life, I am just another dude from middle class, who enjoys motor bike riding now & used to love skiing black diamonds once upon a time :)
Hope it helped. Post your questions if any, that are specifically about personal experience in this thread. I will answer them after I am back from Sabarimala pilgrimage mid next week. Sharanam Swamiye Ayyappa :)
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
What the heck is "spirituality"?
Is it drinking of spirits? Or trying to summon some on a Ouija board.
A very simple explanation is what I am asking for.
Is it drinking of spirits? Or trying to summon some on a Ouija board.
A very simple explanation is what I am asking for.
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indigoyogi
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:30 am
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
Desi;356141What the heck is "spirituality"?
Is it drinking of spirits? Or trying to summon some on a Ouija board.
A very simple explanation is what I am asking for.
Spirituality is all efforts in the pursuit of knowing the self.
The supposition is that, there is a self (that is conscious) and exists eternally.
The second one you mentioned is also mentioned as spirituality in the western world. The first one you mentioned is merely getting drunk:-)
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
indigoyogi;356152Spirituality is all efforts in the pursuit of knowing the self.
The supposition is that, there is a self (that is conscious) and exists eternally.[/quote]
Is your "self" and my "self" different? Is there any special "self" that is not some "self" of any organic being, living, dead, or to be born?
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
indigoyogi;356152Spirituality is all efforts in the pursuit of knowing the self.
The supposition is that, there is a self (that is conscious) and exists eternally.
The second one you mentioned is also mentioned as spirituality in the western world. The first one you mentioned is merely getting drunk:-)
If this self exists eternally, what is it made of? What is it "conscious" of? And where does it retain this memory?
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GutsyGibbon
- Posts: 1267
- Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:56 am
What is spirituality, eternal truth et al?
Kirks,
Appreciate your thoughts and the time you took to answer. Best wishes for your trip to Sabarimala, I have a fair idea of how hard it is. IMO, its similar to running a marathon, in terms of the pursuit of mind over body.
While I meet some of the agnostics in discourses/meetings, I always feel they have a lot of insight into spirituality, and have drawn independent conclusions having read/known a lot of these concepts. This holiday season, I plan to learn to ski, and also learn a thing or two about self and stimulate my mind.
Layman,
I cannot answer your questions, as I really don't know what spirituality is. If I ride my bike up to a mountain, sit there, feel the breeze and stimulate free thought flow, is that spiritual? If I do early morning yoga, am I spiritual? If yes, I am totally spiritual :)) I think I answered why I am seeking this knowledge - above.
Appreciate your thoughts and the time you took to answer. Best wishes for your trip to Sabarimala, I have a fair idea of how hard it is. IMO, its similar to running a marathon, in terms of the pursuit of mind over body.
While I meet some of the agnostics in discourses/meetings, I always feel they have a lot of insight into spirituality, and have drawn independent conclusions having read/known a lot of these concepts. This holiday season, I plan to learn to ski, and also learn a thing or two about self and stimulate my mind.
layman;355945What is external truth? You might be aware that science has proven wrong the so called "eternal truth" or part of it.
What purpose do you seek spirituality for? And, what is spirituality according to you?.
Layman,
I cannot answer your questions, as I really don't know what spirituality is. If I ride my bike up to a mountain, sit there, feel the breeze and stimulate free thought flow, is that spiritual? If I do early morning yoga, am I spiritual? If yes, I am totally spiritual :)) I think I answered why I am seeking this knowledge - above.