Position offered for Return to Indians

love_india · Post by **love_india** » Mon May 24, 2010 1:45 pm

Folks,

Seems like things have changed a lot from 5-10 years now in India. Most of the software folks moved to US or Europe for better pay, to work on cutting edge projects, to work on start ups, and better lifestyle.
During that period there was a shortage of software developers and managers and folks who stayed in
India (no offense to any one, they made a good decision!!) got promoted super fast and now managing many teams and projects.

One thing I don't understand is the scenario where the folks who worked in US say more than a decade have to report to Junior managers in india. Sometime it is tough to digest that.

So what you guys think? If you have more than a decade experience in US in any domain, you should at least report to a director. Any thoughts ? Does it make sense to report to a Junior mgr in any case?
I understand that the skills and values you bring to the company matters.

vizagdesi · Post by **vizagdesi** » Mon May 24, 2010 8:48 pm

love_india;290773Folks,

So what you guys think? If you have more than a decade experience in US in any domain, you should at least report to a director. Any thoughts ? Does it make sense to report to a Junior mgr in any case?
I understand that the skills and values you bring to the company matters.

Yeah, right. you should be given a position based on your experience and not based on your ability to manage large teams. I COMPLETELY agree

ahirman · Post by **ahirman** » Mon May 24, 2010 9:53 pm

Why should anyone be given a position/role just based on his years of experience as the sole qualifying criteria. Isnt the reporting based on the role/position offered (which is based on the business/org model). Do you mean that a company should modify the way they are organized just to accomodate a person because he/she has a decade of experience.

Who is a junior manager anyways...a Manager who is junior in experience?

love_india · Post by **love_india** » Tue May 25, 2010 3:33 am

ahirman;290867Why should anyone be given a position/role just based on his years of experience as the sole qualifying criteria. Isnt the reporting based on the role/position offered (which is based on the business/org model). Do you mean that a company should modify the way they are organized just to accomodate a person because he/she has a decade of experience.

Let me clarify few things:

1> if you compare the working style roles and promotions happened in India , take from 2000-2007
In US the managers (even first line managers) manages people with decade of experience , who are the gurus in their domain. I worked with folks who wrote RFCs , who attends IETF meetings, who chair many standard protocol groups and work as software engineer or technical lead.
I am not saying that India we don't have folks working similar to that. But matter of fact it is very rare.

2> In US people tend to be in Engineering position for long time , unlike in India every two year people got promotion from software engineer/senior engineer/ manger etc. The reason for that in US was because most of the product development happened here compared to India. So they require senior technical people who can really get the things done, than more mangers. To become a technical lead in US in a product company is really really hard,
average you need to have 10-15 years experience and demonstrated technical brilliance in the company. My point is you cannot map technical lead in US to technical lead in India....
Now India also I can sense the trend for more technical architects, leads needed as more product development moves to India.

3> I am not saying that if you have 20 years exp in core domain development as individual contributor, he should made as a technical director directly. I am sure he will be able to manage a big team irrespective of the team size he managed in US. Many developers I know and including me here worked with Customers directly to debug complex issues (customers I mean end customers in the case of product companies) , architect their network, give presentation to the end customer to influence their design etc. So in reality even if they are not people management folks, they have the capability to provide technical leadership for a company in India, absolutely!!!!!

Who is a junior manager anyways...a Manager who is junior in experience?

I meant people with less experience than you and (again I stress relevant technical experience) who manages you. These folks made good decision to stay in India when all the folks moved to US and Europe and got promotion every year and reached the top. I am not jealous or anything on the folks. What I am saying is the breadth and depth of technical expertise , the returned NRI’s brings back to their home country cannot be matched with the technical expertise in India. So they should be treated equally in position with the peers who worked in India.

Another open topic to this forum: What is the position a director/people manager with a decade of experience who is moving from India to US can get? .

love_india · Post by **love_india** » Tue May 25, 2010 3:36 am

Let me clarify few things:

1> if you compare the working style roles and promotions happened in India , take from 2000-2007
In US the managers (even first line managers) manages people with decade of experience , who are the gurus in their domain. I worked with folks who wrote RFCs , who attends IETF meetings, who chair many standard protocol groups and work as software engineer or technical lead.
I am not saying that India we don't have folks working similar to that. But matter of fact it is very rare.

2> In US people tend to be in Engineering position for long time , unlike in India every two year people got promotion from software engineer/senior engineer/ manger etc. The reason for that in US was because most of the product development happened here compared to India. So they require senior technical people who can really get the things done, than more mangers. To become a technical lead in US in a product company is really really hard,
average you need to have 10-15 years experience and demonstrated technical brilliance in the company. My point is you cannot map technical lead in US to technical lead in India....
Now India also I can sense the trend for more technical architects, leads needed as more product development moves to India.

3> I am not saying that if you have 20 years exp in core domain development as individual contributor, he should made as a technical director directly. I am sure he will be able to manage a big team irrespective of the team size he managed in US. Many developers I know and including me here worked with Customers directly to debug complex issues (customers I mean end customers in the case of product companies) , architect their network, give presentation to the end customer to influence their design etc. So in reality even if they are not people management folks, they have the capability to provide technical leadership for a company in India, absolutely!!!!!

Who is a junior manager anyways...a Manager who is junior in experience?

I meant people with less experience than you and (again I stress relevant technical experience) who manages you. These folks made good decision to stay in India when all the folks moved to US and Europe and got promotion every year and reached the top. I am not jealous or anything on the folks. What I am saying is the breadth and depth of technical expertise , the returned NRI’s brings back to their home country cannot be matched with the technical expertise in India. So they should be at least treated equally in position with the same experienced peers in India.

Another open topic to this forum: What is the position a technical director/people manager with a decade of experience who is moving from India to US can get? .

vizagdesi · Post by **vizagdesi** » Tue May 25, 2010 4:37 am

Yes, I COMPLETELY agree. When managing other people (this is what you would be doing if you are reporting AT LEAST to the director), it is important that employers should look for your technical depth and geeky knowledge and NOT worry about your people management skills, especially your ability to manage hundreds of twenty somethings with very little professional abilities.

ahirman · Post by **ahirman** » Tue May 25, 2010 4:50 am

Your arguments are valid and premises are factual but the conclusion is based on the assumption (a very desirable one though) that Indian IT companies (services/product) should be similar to US companies and should be organized the same way. It may happen in 15 years down the line but in the current phase the organizations are evolving and most of them have different mandates and operating models than US organizations. Indian Technology industry is going through an evolution curve and if one looks at it its not that difficult to see the reasons why certain things are implemented in certain way and how they will be in future.

That said its futile to compare Indian IT with US technology product or consulting companies and its impractical to be frustrated because of that as we have no control over this least as a prospective job seeker. India is not US and US is not India and nor will they become like each other in 10-15 years.

Instead of debating what Indian industry should be like R2Iier should see the logic behind things and prepare/position himself accordingly.

By the way just an OT but numerous counterexamples exist at least in IT departments of business organizations in US. I am not talking about product/technology companies like Google or Apple but in Non consulting brick and mortar type business all sort of people are in IT Management. I have met people who are high school drop outs, majored in pyschology, fed ex CIO was a former delivery boy and rose up the ranks through helpdesk..the exceptions are too many. The percentage of people who know nothing apart from giving BS but are still having a good time in US IT industry is far numerous than I have seen in India. Indians on the other hands are exceptionally talented than many of them but are still contained at Manager/Director level. Do you think its better. I dont think so. Should this be the same in India ..hell no.

So the argument is ...dont compare....you didnt compared when you came to US...you didnt compared when you were spending time here....dont compare when you are planning to go back....just do what you always did....adjust to the situation and make the best of it.

direstraits88 · Post by **direstraits88** » Tue May 25, 2010 6:20 am

love_india;290951Let me clarify few things:

1> if you compare the working style roles and promotions happened in India , take from 2000-2007
In US the managers (even first line managers) manages people with decade of experience , who are the gurus in their domain. I worked with folks who wrote RFCs , who attends IETF meetings, who chair many standard protocol groups and work as software engineer or technical lead.
I am not saying that India we don't have folks working similar to that. But matter of fact it is very rare.

2> In US people tend to be in Engineering position for long time , unlike in India every two year people got promotion from software engineer/senior engineer/ manger etc. The reason for that in US was because most of the product development happened here compared to India. So they require senior technical people who can really get the things done, than more mangers. To become a technical lead in US in a product company is really really hard,
average you need to have 10-15 years experience and demonstrated technical brilliance in the company. My point is you cannot map technical lead in US to technical lead in India....
Now India also I can sense the trend for more technical architects, leads needed as more product development moves to India.

3> I am not saying that if you have 20 years exp in core domain development as individual contributor, he should made as a technical director directly. I am sure he will be able to manage a big team irrespective of the team size he managed in US. Many developers I know and including me here worked with Customers directly to debug complex issues (customers I mean end customers in the case of product companies) , architect their network, give presentation to the end customer to influence their design etc. So in reality even if they are not people management folks, they have the capability to provide technical leadership for a company in India, absolutely!!!!!

If you are all the above (ok atleast 80% of the above..) then you won't be reporting to a Jr. Manager.. :-)

Lot of product companies have Sr. Managers/Directors with direct reports in India. So your generalization is not necessarily the norm everywhere.. A technical experts are valued a lot in a Product company and many in India directly report to a Director/VP in U.S. Many teams are vertical with members spread across the world. So there's no one single organization hierarchy common to all IT companies in India.

On a similar note, would you have a problem reporting to a Jr. manager who happens to be white..

deeppurple · Post by **deeppurple** » Tue May 25, 2010 6:27 am

It seems that it sometimes boils down to the premise that you dont want to be reporting to a Manager who doesn't know what he is talking about -- I am not saying that all "Senior" Managers have that ability but I feel that it won't be as apparent with them as the case with "Junior" Managers.

PeterGriffin · Post by **PeterGriffin** » Tue May 25, 2010 7:24 pm

vizagdesi;290957Yes, I COMPLETELY agree. When managing other people (this is what you would be doing if you are reporting AT LEAST to the director), it is important that employers should look for your technical depth and geeky knowledge and NOT worry about your people management skills, especially your ability to manage hundreds of twenty somethings with very little professional abilities.

vizagdesi;290853Yeah, right. you should be given a position based on your experience and not based on your ability to manage large teams. I COMPLETELY agree

OP, remember that you will also have to deal with useless bits of sarcasm like the ones above from some of the R2I'd members in India. They won't have any good advice but just meaningless sarcasms.
Do you really want to do it?

Btw, ahirman has some excellent points on the comparison between US and Indian IT companies. As he pointed out, it'll take a few years for the industry in India to flatten out from its linear pattern now. They key is to align yourself in the US for a position that you want in India. Give yourself a few years before you make that decision to return.

Good luck.