Hi,
This is inspired by on going discussion in another thread.. Most of us working in US will not get opportunites in the space of Project Management and People/Resource management etc... This is mainly due to jobs limited to individual contributions.. One may be extremely good in his focus area and gain business/domain knowledge, but I personally believe thats not enough ..
However, since these areas are very essential to move ahead in the career, how one should prepare and mould himself/herself for the next level?
Appreciate good pointers/resources/suggestions for a 'Transition from Sr. Engineer to Next Level'..
Thanks Alot!
Uday
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
-
skepticmystic
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:14 am
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
I am facing similar problems (in an R2I scenario) . I have been working in the US for close to 6 years as an individual contributor. But a big Indian consulting company I talked to had questions on the following lines:
How many people did you lead?
We have people with 6 years experience leading a team of average 12 people. Now this guy may know much less than you but they would pin you down in negotiations that---- How would you manage team dynamics? Etc
In the US itself, in larger corporations its hard to move up since middle management from the baby boomer generation is not going anywhere. But in startups etc I have seen some friends break into managerial roles faster, some even get into the VP levels around 35.
~2c
How many people did you lead?
We have people with 6 years experience leading a team of average 12 people. Now this guy may know much less than you but they would pin you down in negotiations that---- How would you manage team dynamics? Etc
In the US itself, in larger corporations its hard to move up since middle management from the baby boomer generation is not going anywhere. But in startups etc I have seen some friends break into managerial roles faster, some even get into the VP levels around 35.
~2c
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
I don't want to de-rail the discussion here. But, I always thought and still thinking if it is ever a good idea to get into Management. Ofcourse, there are people who are interested in getting into management and they should and will get into. But, to me, having worked as a techie (not an individual contributor), I am still skeptical to make that move.
There are many companies in India who allow both Technical as well as Management ladder and you are allowed to choose depending on your interest. Ofcourse, even if you choose Technical ladder, you will not be an individual contributor but you will do less of people management, but more of team work. On a side note, it may be difficult for a person to move back to technical field after having worked as a Manager for more than 2 years!
There are many companies in India who allow both Technical as well as Management ladder and you are allowed to choose depending on your interest. Ofcourse, even if you choose Technical ladder, you will not be an individual contributor but you will do less of people management, but more of team work. On a side note, it may be difficult for a person to move back to technical field after having worked as a Manager for more than 2 years!
-
skepticmystic
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:14 am
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
Check out:
Is Writing Code a Career Limiting Move?
#3: In my company, if you are a techie in a team, you are still considered an "individual contributor". To be sure, I have always worked in teams myself.
In my experience, being a techie after several years of work ex is pretty common and acceptable in the US but less so in India. If I was to remain here forever, I would have no issues with being in a technical position since chief architects get paid almost as much as VP level positions. But in an Indian context, I would want to "move up" and out of the technical ladder into the management to be a Roman in Rome umm sorry .. an Indian in India :)
Another thing is the kind of skillset you acquire when you move into mgmt. More of soft-skills like people/project/customer management which is more applicable in a lot of different industries. Compare that to being an expert techie in a field which restricts you to industries in that field and more importantly the lifetime of that field. Say you are a windows guru, but $soft gets wiped out after 15 years, what do you do? Think of all those 55 year old cobol programmers who have "coding is not a crime" label on the cars!
#4: Agreed there is title inflation in startups, but it alteast lets you write team mgmt experience on your resume, and then interview for similar positions in the industry.
Is Writing Code a Career Limiting Move?
#3: In my company, if you are a techie in a team, you are still considered an "individual contributor". To be sure, I have always worked in teams myself.
In my experience, being a techie after several years of work ex is pretty common and acceptable in the US but less so in India. If I was to remain here forever, I would have no issues with being in a technical position since chief architects get paid almost as much as VP level positions. But in an Indian context, I would want to "move up" and out of the technical ladder into the management to be a Roman in Rome umm sorry .. an Indian in India :)
Another thing is the kind of skillset you acquire when you move into mgmt. More of soft-skills like people/project/customer management which is more applicable in a lot of different industries. Compare that to being an expert techie in a field which restricts you to industries in that field and more importantly the lifetime of that field. Say you are a windows guru, but $soft gets wiped out after 15 years, what do you do? Think of all those 55 year old cobol programmers who have "coding is not a crime" label on the cars!
#4: Agreed there is title inflation in startups, but it alteast lets you write team mgmt experience on your resume, and then interview for similar positions in the industry.
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
skepticmystic;8335Check out:
Is Writing Code a Career Limiting Move?
[/quote]
#5,
That is a good blog. However, Tom Ball is not asking you to move to Management; rather, he is asking you to be a techie and even more...don't stop writing code!
I agree with you on Being a Roman in Rome, Indian in India. But, as far as I understood the industry, it looks like the industry in India is slowly moving towards recognizing and providing more options for tech ladder also. Gone are the days when you were forced to become a Manager even if you don't like to be one. Becoming project manager looked like a nartural progression earlier. But, not anymore.
I also agree that Managers can be good players in any industry and the argument about COBOL programmers, Windows programmers is fine. But, it is kind of difficult to give up (or do less of) what you are doing for quite some time (a few years) now.
Also, there is this fear of "will I be successful as a manager". This fear is not because of lack of confidence in oneself. But, this fear is mainly due to the nature of politics involved in Management careers and the kind of manipulative games people play in Management. This is just my opinion, no flares please!
So, I am always skeptical about making the move.
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
Nice discussion so far. Almost 90% of R2I folks from US will face this issue. The problem is the business model in US and India widely differs. As we all know there is no class difference in US when compared to India in terms of individual contributor role. I have worked in US with 60 year old man who is a tester and we coordinate work peacefully. The same old man was a Vice-president for a big company prior to this job. He willingly took this job because he dont want to handle the stress from his previous job.
I dont think the same situation will happen in India. Most of Returnees from USA will be in the agegroup of 35 to 45 years with grey hair (for some - little hair or no hair :) ) and if we want to work with folks who are less than 25 years old - it will be very difficult to coordinate with folks as we will be odd man out. The business model in India is more of a quantity model where lot of software folks are given a job for $10 to $20 billable hours. Naturally when we have more than 10 years experience, we WILL NOT be competing with folks who are junior level folks. It doesn't mean that I am telling we are class apart or we should discriminate them - Just we dont fit in that group.
Obviously we have to manage people and that will be our job. Certainly the hands on experience we got in US will help us a lot but managing different people requires people skills, negotiation skills, persuasive skills, communication skills, team building skills & presentation skills which are more like ART and not science. We have to fine-tune our math/analytical skills to art skills and there lies the challenge. Overall there will be lot of politics and we should know how to handle the politics.
Bottomline, if one has more than 10 years experience in one particular area such as ERP or Java or J2EE or Dotnet, its better to go as a manager in the relevant field as managing will be easier to start with. However, the way indian/mnc companies work in India, they might put in totally different area and will ask to manage which is very difficult as a new-entrant. How to deal with this situation is anyone's guess.
My take will be to go as a manager in the same area which I have been involved for more than 10 years due to my comfort factor.
I dont think the same situation will happen in India. Most of Returnees from USA will be in the agegroup of 35 to 45 years with grey hair (for some - little hair or no hair :) ) and if we want to work with folks who are less than 25 years old - it will be very difficult to coordinate with folks as we will be odd man out. The business model in India is more of a quantity model where lot of software folks are given a job for $10 to $20 billable hours. Naturally when we have more than 10 years experience, we WILL NOT be competing with folks who are junior level folks. It doesn't mean that I am telling we are class apart or we should discriminate them - Just we dont fit in that group.
Obviously we have to manage people and that will be our job. Certainly the hands on experience we got in US will help us a lot but managing different people requires people skills, negotiation skills, persuasive skills, communication skills, team building skills & presentation skills which are more like ART and not science. We have to fine-tune our math/analytical skills to art skills and there lies the challenge. Overall there will be lot of politics and we should know how to handle the politics.
Bottomline, if one has more than 10 years experience in one particular area such as ERP or Java or J2EE or Dotnet, its better to go as a manager in the relevant field as managing will be easier to start with. However, the way indian/mnc companies work in India, they might put in totally different area and will ask to manage which is very difficult as a new-entrant. How to deal with this situation is anyone's guess.
My take will be to go as a manager in the same area which I have been involved for more than 10 years due to my comfort factor.
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
I am a core prod dev person and dont know much about IT services. In my humble opinion , it is ludicrous to think moving to management is the only way to grow. Its not a place based thing ( US/India/UK etc etc). Basically prod dev is still very new in India. Most of the prod dev companies were acting as offshore/cost centers for their main branch in US/Germany/UK . But things are changing now. Most of the top notch companies want India labs/dev center's to take ownership and deliver. The expectations are more. This is truly going to change everything. Look at any well established prod companies in US , esp the valley. You have profiles like Tech staff member , distinguished engineers , fellows who are all company execs. They are on par with directors and VPs. This is a well established career line. If labs/dev centers in India start taking ownership of core product components , you need such people. Otherwise its not going to work out. From my personal experience I can tell you, top notch prod dev companies are looking for such people in India and they are having difficulty finding such people. If you like technology and are passionate about it and like doing technical leadership ( which is everything a manager does minus the salary reviews and one on ones) there is definitely a great career path in the technology line. If a company cannot provide a technical career path in India , it means that its not a strategic center. Again , I am talking only with respect to prod dev and I dont know a thing about IT services.
-
Desi_by_Nature
- Posts: 772
- Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:57 pm
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
junk - good argument! :emthup:
whether these forerunners of strategic thinking will be able to deliver functions like technical support and maintenance just as well as delivering a product to offshore clients still remains to be seen. But it seems to a step in the right direction.
whether these forerunners of strategic thinking will be able to deliver functions like technical support and maintenance just as well as delivering a product to offshore clients still remains to be seen. But it seems to a step in the right direction.
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
I totally agree, management is not the only choice for the 'Next Level', rather one of the option. However, one may not want to be a techie all through his/her career. Though, the discussion is not about whether technical ladder or management space, its always good to weigh the pros and cons...
junk- I too come from a prod dev background, but 'ownership/true ownership' are just the buzz words used to please IDC engineers as of today. I am not denying the fact that things are changing, but probably it takes lot more time to get there. It doesnt come purely because IDC has good techies, again you need a good manager there to convince the boss in US/UK/Germany and get that ownershsip. So why not get into those shoes, at the same time leverage the technical skills?
Probably getting into management space is a good choice today for future direction. As, pointed out by LoveIndia.. people skills, negotiation skills, persuasive skills, communication skills, team building skills & presentation skills.. These skills are very essential to be successful both in career and day to day life as well.
Thanks
junk- I too come from a prod dev background, but 'ownership/true ownership' are just the buzz words used to please IDC engineers as of today. I am not denying the fact that things are changing, but probably it takes lot more time to get there. It doesnt come purely because IDC has good techies, again you need a good manager there to convince the boss in US/UK/Germany and get that ownershsip. So why not get into those shoes, at the same time leverage the technical skills?
Probably getting into management space is a good choice today for future direction. As, pointed out by LoveIndia.. people skills, negotiation skills, persuasive skills, communication skills, team building skills & presentation skills.. These skills are very essential to be successful both in career and day to day life as well.
Thanks
-
money_in_my_mind
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:44 am
Pointers: Transition from a Sr. Engineer to Next Level.
#8:
Your thoughts are only applicable to less than 5% (or even lesser) of IT work that's getting done in India. In majority of desi companies, incl. product companies, most developers are less than 5 years experienced. So unless you won't mind witnessing your juniors surpassing you, earning fatter pay checks and eventually become your boss or your boss' boss, you have no choice but to progress. I would even go as far as saying that it is true in US also for majority of people. Reason being, not every body is Distinguish engineer/Architect/fellow material and sheer number of years in the industry doesn't automatically lead one to that level. I know of at lease 2 desi ex-coworkers who are in their 40s and still code. They surely don't like it but didn't get into management at the right time and are certainly NOT Distinguish engg./fellow material. Guess what, they are making lesser money than those desis who chose the management route and are unhappy as their career are stagnant.
My point is that you need to determine your true potential on technical front and estimate how far you can progress. And if you find yourself short of what's needed to be there, try to get into management and acquire the skills you need to be a good manager. Some of the posts on this thread have already highlighted what those are.
Your thoughts are only applicable to less than 5% (or even lesser) of IT work that's getting done in India. In majority of desi companies, incl. product companies, most developers are less than 5 years experienced. So unless you won't mind witnessing your juniors surpassing you, earning fatter pay checks and eventually become your boss or your boss' boss, you have no choice but to progress. I would even go as far as saying that it is true in US also for majority of people. Reason being, not every body is Distinguish engineer/Architect/fellow material and sheer number of years in the industry doesn't automatically lead one to that level. I know of at lease 2 desi ex-coworkers who are in their 40s and still code. They surely don't like it but didn't get into management at the right time and are certainly NOT Distinguish engg./fellow material. Guess what, they are making lesser money than those desis who chose the management route and are unhappy as their career are stagnant.
My point is that you need to determine your true potential on technical front and estimate how far you can progress. And if you find yourself short of what's needed to be there, try to get into management and acquire the skills you need to be a good manager. Some of the posts on this thread have already highlighted what those are.