Why would India needs any enemies when it has Left parties ?
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/19raman.htm
The issue is not about nuclear deal. All the political parties of India have a right to express their concerns if they feel India's strategic programme gets affected. But given Left parties record, their affiliations, it comes no surprising their acts which are the direct orders of the chinese embassy. For heaven's sake, they supported China during 1962 war.
If you are a Bengali or a Keralite or a supporter from other states, ask yourself why do you elect such parties to power ? They slowed down this govt completely and now preparing to put the final nail on the coffin citing nuclear deal.
China\'s interest is our interest
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bengal_tiger
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:51 pm
China's interest is our interest
Good point. Let me start with the question of election first. You would
be surprised to know that there are many Bengalis and Keralites who
are not communists (including myself), but unfortunately, there is no
credible alternative to the communists in Bengal. Well, there
is this crazy lady called Mamata Banerjee, but most non-communists
in Bengal prefer sailing into the Bay of Bengal in a boat with a hole
in it than having her as the chief minister.
The present communist government in West Bengal has very good
leadership and Buddhadev Bhattacharya is very popular with the
younger generation because of his liberal views. But, he has clashed
with the politburo several times on issues like Madrasas in West Bengal
to land acquisition for industries. He does not take much interest
in national policy as his priority is Bengal, and on several occasions,
he has marginalized the central leaders such as Prakash Karat.
In my opinion, Karat is the person responsible for this hardline policy,
and he may be doing this because he wants to establish himself
as a leader of the communists. So, you may be looking at some power
play withing the CPM leadership. I don't think the communists in
India take orders from China or any such country. They do look up to
them for inspiration, which might explain the liberalization in Bengal.
This brings forth another very interesting question, and I ask this as
an Indian, who deeply cares about our security issues. Is there
something in this policy that will harm India and her Nuclear Research
in the long term?
The thing that scares me is that Dick Cheney was apparently
very interested in pushing this deal and he works neither for
India, nor for the United States, I have a feeling that some
corporate bigwigs stand to make a lot of money from this
deal which is why Cheney is so eager to see this through.
Your comments?
be surprised to know that there are many Bengalis and Keralites who
are not communists (including myself), but unfortunately, there is no
credible alternative to the communists in Bengal. Well, there
is this crazy lady called Mamata Banerjee, but most non-communists
in Bengal prefer sailing into the Bay of Bengal in a boat with a hole
in it than having her as the chief minister.
The present communist government in West Bengal has very good
leadership and Buddhadev Bhattacharya is very popular with the
younger generation because of his liberal views. But, he has clashed
with the politburo several times on issues like Madrasas in West Bengal
to land acquisition for industries. He does not take much interest
in national policy as his priority is Bengal, and on several occasions,
he has marginalized the central leaders such as Prakash Karat.
In my opinion, Karat is the person responsible for this hardline policy,
and he may be doing this because he wants to establish himself
as a leader of the communists. So, you may be looking at some power
play withing the CPM leadership. I don't think the communists in
India take orders from China or any such country. They do look up to
them for inspiration, which might explain the liberalization in Bengal.
This brings forth another very interesting question, and I ask this as
an Indian, who deeply cares about our security issues. Is there
something in this policy that will harm India and her Nuclear Research
in the long term?
The thing that scares me is that Dick Cheney was apparently
very interested in pushing this deal and he works neither for
India, nor for the United States, I have a feeling that some
corporate bigwigs stand to make a lot of money from this
deal which is why Cheney is so eager to see this through.
Your comments?
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bengal_tiger
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:51 pm
China's interest is our interest
Just wanted to add something to my earlier post: I have seen
news stories that Pakistan and China might go for a nuclear deal
if the US India deal goes through. India and China have come a long
way in terms of relations, and does this deal have the potential of
polarizing the South Asian security situation in any way?
What is wrong with this theory:
The US wants to polarize South Asia because India is sitting on a
pile of cash right now, and US defense companies will make a tonne
of money if they can scare India into buying more weapons. If they
can properly polarize the situation, they can sell weapons to India
and Pakistan.
If the subcontinent heads towards a nuclear war with China also
engaged, it will be a victory for the neocon policy (China weakened),
and US defense companies (India and Pakistan buy weapons from US).
This might also have the added benefit to the US in the long term
because a war-worn India would again be poor and dependent on
the US for a lot of things including food. China might end up spending
its reserves in a war, which would also reduce the US foreign debt
(if China has to go for deficit spending). This sounds like a classic
neocon policy cooked up by Rove and Gang!
The best thing for India right now is to constructively engage China
instead of antagonizing it. We do need a nuclear deal, but can it be
with someone that does not have a past record of lighting fires?
How about France? Russia? and may be, we can even argue with the
Chinese that since you don't like us hobnobbing with the US, why
don't we sign a nuclear deal? Two heads are definitely better than one!
news stories that Pakistan and China might go for a nuclear deal
if the US India deal goes through. India and China have come a long
way in terms of relations, and does this deal have the potential of
polarizing the South Asian security situation in any way?
What is wrong with this theory:
The US wants to polarize South Asia because India is sitting on a
pile of cash right now, and US defense companies will make a tonne
of money if they can scare India into buying more weapons. If they
can properly polarize the situation, they can sell weapons to India
and Pakistan.
If the subcontinent heads towards a nuclear war with China also
engaged, it will be a victory for the neocon policy (China weakened),
and US defense companies (India and Pakistan buy weapons from US).
This might also have the added benefit to the US in the long term
because a war-worn India would again be poor and dependent on
the US for a lot of things including food. China might end up spending
its reserves in a war, which would also reduce the US foreign debt
(if China has to go for deficit spending). This sounds like a classic
neocon policy cooked up by Rove and Gang!
The best thing for India right now is to constructively engage China
instead of antagonizing it. We do need a nuclear deal, but can it be
with someone that does not have a past record of lighting fires?
How about France? Russia? and may be, we can even argue with the
Chinese that since you don't like us hobnobbing with the US, why
don't we sign a nuclear deal? Two heads are definitely better than one!
China's interest is our interest
Like I said, this is not exactly about the nuclear deal. The link posted expresses the same opinion -- its the communists policy of following the Chinese interests is what is the problem.
Yes, you dont want to antagonize the Chinese. But do you know what Chinese want ? It wants to be a sole superpower in the region. It already does everything to weaken and bleed India to the maximum. You definitely dont want to go to them with a begging bowl for a nuclear deal. Besides, it is the nuclear suppliers group that India has to go to and US still has lot of influence on this group.
Indian govt and the people of India should ask themselves -- what they are getting out of this deal ? I am sure there must be lot of midnight oil burnt on this issue. If they think it is not worth it as it affects their strategic programme they would not have gone for it. If India were to explode another nuclear device, it has to take lot of repurcussions into consideration. And that is true even today whether nuclear deal or not. Yes, it would have built lot of nuclear reactors that may have to be shut down. Thats the key -- when India builds the nuclear reactors it should only build them for the redundancy, it should not make its life dependent on them (therefore working on alternate energy strategies at the same time). India should still be able to function in case they have to be shutdown in the after-math of nuclear testing.
So the bottomline is, it does'nt matter if Cheney and his buddies stand to gain from this deal. What matters is for India to decide whether this deal is good for the country. It also has to consider other advantages tied with nuclear deal such as co-operation in other high-tech areas etc.
Besides nuclear deal, India has to act and forge strategic relationships with like-minded forces to contain China. By containing I mean not to destabilize, but also grow into a gorilla along-side China so that the communist country does not aspire to start invading countries in the region. India just has to do it for its billion+ people's sake. If we think we are going to antagonize Chinese just by entering into a civil nuclear cooperation with US, we have'nt forgotten 1962. India is not the same as it was in 1962 and it should start believing in itself.
Regarding the question of polarizing South Asia, once again India should start believing in itself and move beyond Pakistan. If Pakistan wants a similar nuclear deal with China, not a problem. It is not going to polarize any further when they already have nukes. The world did not bother when China was openly arming Pakistan with nuclear weapons, what can be worse if they start co-operating on nuclear energy front ?
I believe, decades from now, India-US leadership of two democracies will be good for the world. India with its growing stature as one of the major world powers will exert its influence on US to tone down its war rhetoric and change its policies around the world. An India-like US superpower is good for the world any day than a communist China superpower.
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Regarding electing communists to power, elect them by all means on the local front like Buddhadeb who is a capable person. But please dont send the communists to the parliament. I know I cant ask this from all the voters but atleast the learned folks can make this distinction.
Yes, you dont want to antagonize the Chinese. But do you know what Chinese want ? It wants to be a sole superpower in the region. It already does everything to weaken and bleed India to the maximum. You definitely dont want to go to them with a begging bowl for a nuclear deal. Besides, it is the nuclear suppliers group that India has to go to and US still has lot of influence on this group.
Indian govt and the people of India should ask themselves -- what they are getting out of this deal ? I am sure there must be lot of midnight oil burnt on this issue. If they think it is not worth it as it affects their strategic programme they would not have gone for it. If India were to explode another nuclear device, it has to take lot of repurcussions into consideration. And that is true even today whether nuclear deal or not. Yes, it would have built lot of nuclear reactors that may have to be shut down. Thats the key -- when India builds the nuclear reactors it should only build them for the redundancy, it should not make its life dependent on them (therefore working on alternate energy strategies at the same time). India should still be able to function in case they have to be shutdown in the after-math of nuclear testing.
So the bottomline is, it does'nt matter if Cheney and his buddies stand to gain from this deal. What matters is for India to decide whether this deal is good for the country. It also has to consider other advantages tied with nuclear deal such as co-operation in other high-tech areas etc.
Besides nuclear deal, India has to act and forge strategic relationships with like-minded forces to contain China. By containing I mean not to destabilize, but also grow into a gorilla along-side China so that the communist country does not aspire to start invading countries in the region. India just has to do it for its billion+ people's sake. If we think we are going to antagonize Chinese just by entering into a civil nuclear cooperation with US, we have'nt forgotten 1962. India is not the same as it was in 1962 and it should start believing in itself.
Regarding the question of polarizing South Asia, once again India should start believing in itself and move beyond Pakistan. If Pakistan wants a similar nuclear deal with China, not a problem. It is not going to polarize any further when they already have nukes. The world did not bother when China was openly arming Pakistan with nuclear weapons, what can be worse if they start co-operating on nuclear energy front ?
I believe, decades from now, India-US leadership of two democracies will be good for the world. India with its growing stature as one of the major world powers will exert its influence on US to tone down its war rhetoric and change its policies around the world. An India-like US superpower is good for the world any day than a communist China superpower.
---------
Regarding electing communists to power, elect them by all means on the local front like Buddhadeb who is a capable person. But please dont send the communists to the parliament. I know I cant ask this from all the voters but atleast the learned folks can make this distinction.
China's interest is our interest
Strategic thinker K Subrahmanyam, whose line of thought on the nuclear deal can be said to be similar to that of the prime minister, told rediff.com, "If India does not proceed with the deal it is a clear message to Russia [Images], France [Images], Germany [Images], Japan and other powers who want to see a multi-polar world that India does not want to play a role in that world."
Subrahmanyam is worried that not only will India lose an opportunity, "It will also leave Asia to be dominated by China. It will allow Indian talent to be exploited by the US without giving India access to high technology in the international sphere," he says. "China has used Pakistan as a surrogate threat to India by arming it with missiles and nuclear weapons. Now our domestic opposition will come in handy in keeping India down perpetually."
Naresh Chandra, former Indian Ambassador to the US, told rediff.com, "There is no harm in the discussion as desired by the Left on the issue of the nuclear deal. Some of the issues concerning the future have to be addressed and that can't be a disadvantage. But the cancellation of the deal will have consequences. India will lose a golden opportunity. History will be harsh on how we messed up an opportunity.
"It will be a terrific achievement for China, which continues to get frontier technology while India is deprived of it. We will not get dual technology. We will not get missile technology, supercomputers and technology to expand the space sector."
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/19ndeal2.htm
Subrahmanyam is worried that not only will India lose an opportunity, "It will also leave Asia to be dominated by China. It will allow Indian talent to be exploited by the US without giving India access to high technology in the international sphere," he says. "China has used Pakistan as a surrogate threat to India by arming it with missiles and nuclear weapons. Now our domestic opposition will come in handy in keeping India down perpetually."
Naresh Chandra, former Indian Ambassador to the US, told rediff.com, "There is no harm in the discussion as desired by the Left on the issue of the nuclear deal. Some of the issues concerning the future have to be addressed and that can't be a disadvantage. But the cancellation of the deal will have consequences. India will lose a golden opportunity. History will be harsh on how we messed up an opportunity.
"It will be a terrific achievement for China, which continues to get frontier technology while India is deprived of it. We will not get dual technology. We will not get missile technology, supercomputers and technology to expand the space sector."
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/19ndeal2.htm
China's interest is our interest
The irony is there is a bipartisan support in US to US-India deal where as in India, the left parties are hell bent on destroying this deal. This is the same kind of thinking that destroyed the country for the past 50 years.
They are so much worried about the India's strategic programme, can anyone post here what was their response when NDA govt tested Pokhran-II. Or what was their response when Indira Gandhi pursued Nuclear program and tested Pokhran-I ? I bet they never would have pursued the nuclear programme if they were in power as it does not exactly fall under the strategic interests of China.
They are so much worried about the India's strategic programme, can anyone post here what was their response when NDA govt tested Pokhran-II. Or what was their response when Indira Gandhi pursued Nuclear program and tested Pokhran-I ? I bet they never would have pursued the nuclear programme if they were in power as it does not exactly fall under the strategic interests of China.
China's interest is our interest
The indian communists are truly the most despicable bunch of politicians you can ever come across. Of all the countries in the world I think the most dangerous and diabolical by far are the chinese in their single minded pursuit of global domination. You can even trust the pakis but never the chinese. Their notions of their superiority are deeply ingrained (middle kingdom means that china is halfway between earth and heaven and by definition superior to all else on earth). Yes I hate them but also have a sneaking admiration for their guts, resolve and bloody mindedness. Something we can learn from.
They will go to any extent to marginalize or eliminate whom they perceive to be a threat. The pakis dont know that they are being used or their hatred of India is so much that they dont care. But as far as India is concerned, their only hope is to have a nuclear arsenal and delivery mechanism like ICBM;s, so big that not only China but anyone else will have to think twice before attacking. To that end india should stop at nothing. They will talk to you when you have a ton of hydrogen bombs and what not. That is the only language they understand.
I am not sure what is in the nuclear deal. The US will always only look out for their interest which is absolutely fine, and after all it is a transparent democracy and they make no bones about it. India should go ahead with the deal if it sees a net positive in it. If the terms of the deal are not favorable in the net to India's strategic concerns then they should pull out of it. The US obviously has some calculation in its mind when offering these terms to India and using India as a counter to China may be a part of the calculation. To those think we can engage with China - they are deluded as their can never be a alignment of interests with the territorial conflicts that go with being contigious neighbours. An alignment of interests is definitely possible between India and the US, though that may also be subject to change. At least in the current state there is an alignment of interests. Dealings in foreign policy should always be on the basis of alignment of interests and not some wooly headed notion of friendship and solidarity between nations.
To those who think we can engage with China, China will talk down to India unless it has equal strength. The US is a more predictable entity for India to deal with than China and with not being a neighbour there is very less scope for a conflict of interest. With China we already have territorial conlicts and they claim arunachal and aksai chin. Is there any doubt then that we should be talking about a nuclear deal with US if it suits our interest?? If the commies are questioning the deal because it is not serving Indian interests that is fine, but if they are trying to scuttle the deal to protect Chinese interests then that is terrible.
But the despicable CPI and CPM and what not of India are really worse than the worst scum. Communism is really the worst evil on earth. sorry I could not help the rant.
They will go to any extent to marginalize or eliminate whom they perceive to be a threat. The pakis dont know that they are being used or their hatred of India is so much that they dont care. But as far as India is concerned, their only hope is to have a nuclear arsenal and delivery mechanism like ICBM;s, so big that not only China but anyone else will have to think twice before attacking. To that end india should stop at nothing. They will talk to you when you have a ton of hydrogen bombs and what not. That is the only language they understand.
I am not sure what is in the nuclear deal. The US will always only look out for their interest which is absolutely fine, and after all it is a transparent democracy and they make no bones about it. India should go ahead with the deal if it sees a net positive in it. If the terms of the deal are not favorable in the net to India's strategic concerns then they should pull out of it. The US obviously has some calculation in its mind when offering these terms to India and using India as a counter to China may be a part of the calculation. To those think we can engage with China - they are deluded as their can never be a alignment of interests with the territorial conflicts that go with being contigious neighbours. An alignment of interests is definitely possible between India and the US, though that may also be subject to change. At least in the current state there is an alignment of interests. Dealings in foreign policy should always be on the basis of alignment of interests and not some wooly headed notion of friendship and solidarity between nations.
To those who think we can engage with China, China will talk down to India unless it has equal strength. The US is a more predictable entity for India to deal with than China and with not being a neighbour there is very less scope for a conflict of interest. With China we already have territorial conlicts and they claim arunachal and aksai chin. Is there any doubt then that we should be talking about a nuclear deal with US if it suits our interest?? If the commies are questioning the deal because it is not serving Indian interests that is fine, but if they are trying to scuttle the deal to protect Chinese interests then that is terrible.
But the despicable CPI and CPM and what not of India are really worse than the worst scum. Communism is really the worst evil on earth. sorry I could not help the rant.
China's interest is our interest
It seems like India at the moment is caught between hard and rock. On one side if we don't go forward with this deal, we send a very wrong message to the world about how difficult and tedious it is to work through Indian politics. On the other hand if we seal the deal, China covertly pampers Pakistan and supply them with Missiles etc
We need to seal this deal, Pakistan may be crying out loud but it won't do much because of the prevailing situation in Pakistan, it is very likely that General Mush will be either killed by terrorists or be replaced by Bhutto or Shariff and they need few years to regain the control. Pakistan will remain under west pressure to acts against terrorism. Meanwhile India can get even stronger. Keep peace with Pakistan and China and keep getting stronger to the point that they will think twice before lifting their finger. This is how China has done it. US has been criticizing China while China has been flooding their markets. In the mean time, they build their economy and defense and sitting on a huge dollar stock pile.
We need to seal this deal, Pakistan may be crying out loud but it won't do much because of the prevailing situation in Pakistan, it is very likely that General Mush will be either killed by terrorists or be replaced by Bhutto or Shariff and they need few years to regain the control. Pakistan will remain under west pressure to acts against terrorism. Meanwhile India can get even stronger. Keep peace with Pakistan and China and keep getting stronger to the point that they will think twice before lifting their finger. This is how China has done it. US has been criticizing China while China has been flooding their markets. In the mean time, they build their economy and defense and sitting on a huge dollar stock pile.
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bengal_tiger
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:51 pm
China's interest is our interest
Anand, Nand and Jaggudada:
I agree with most of what you say. I think the main points you make are as follows:
1) Communism is a bad philosophy and we need to be wary of China:
I agree, I have no problems with those points.
2) This Nuclear agreement with US will help India become a
superpower:
I am not so sure because as I understand it, in order to get civilian
sector co-operation, India is making some compromises on its
defense research. If you need to be a regional military power, you need
a strong and uninfluenced military research program, I still believe
that the government needs to take a very serious look at if India
will be compromising her ability to do nuclear research for defense.
3) China and Pakistan will collaborate irrespective of whether India
has a treaty with the US or not.
I think you are right on this, and so, it may be a good idea to go
for an agreement with the US, but the fine print has to be read well.
However, don't expect any help from the US if China attacks, just on the grounds that India is a democracy. Nehru tried pulling that one in 1962 and we got clobbered real hard by the reds. US foreign policy is dictated by trade and business interests, not philosophy alone. Which is why I think this deal will eventually get through because some people stand to make a lot of money from this. Again, I have nothing against it as long as the US does not get a veto button on Indian military research. I just hope that they don't have a secret agenda to draw the Indians into a war with the Chinese in which case, they will gain on both fronts, by weakening China and by selling arms to India.
I agree with most of what you say. I think the main points you make are as follows:
1) Communism is a bad philosophy and we need to be wary of China:
I agree, I have no problems with those points.
2) This Nuclear agreement with US will help India become a
superpower:
I am not so sure because as I understand it, in order to get civilian
sector co-operation, India is making some compromises on its
defense research. If you need to be a regional military power, you need
a strong and uninfluenced military research program, I still believe
that the government needs to take a very serious look at if India
will be compromising her ability to do nuclear research for defense.
3) China and Pakistan will collaborate irrespective of whether India
has a treaty with the US or not.
I think you are right on this, and so, it may be a good idea to go
for an agreement with the US, but the fine print has to be read well.
However, don't expect any help from the US if China attacks, just on the grounds that India is a democracy. Nehru tried pulling that one in 1962 and we got clobbered real hard by the reds. US foreign policy is dictated by trade and business interests, not philosophy alone. Which is why I think this deal will eventually get through because some people stand to make a lot of money from this. Again, I have nothing against it as long as the US does not get a veto button on Indian military research. I just hope that they don't have a secret agenda to draw the Indians into a war with the Chinese in which case, they will gain on both fronts, by weakening China and by selling arms to India.
China's interest is our interest
bengal tiger: I agree with your assessment. In general no nation should assume any other nation looking to do any favors to it. It is up to each nation to look out for its own interests and look any gift horse in the mouth before accepting anything.
Trust is something that can and does happen between individuals. But nations are amorphous entities that have no stake in the interest of any other but themselves. India should trust nobody and nothing and purely look at every dealing from purely a point of view of self interest alone. That has always been US policy. Those who think that even today the russians are friends of India are sadly mistaken. Everybody is out to make money and corner more than their share of resources first. That is the game.
Trust is something that can and does happen between individuals. But nations are amorphous entities that have no stake in the interest of any other but themselves. India should trust nobody and nothing and purely look at every dealing from purely a point of view of self interest alone. That has always been US policy. Those who think that even today the russians are friends of India are sadly mistaken. Everybody is out to make money and corner more than their share of resources first. That is the game.