Thirukural - Great work or nothing great?

[Desi]

I first heard about this, I think, in the old MSN groups forum. The recent hullabullo on those made me probe a little deeper.

My intention of the post below is not to denigrate but to look at something objectively, that apparently some people hold in high esteem? Is it worthy of such esteem? If it gets denigrated in the process of discussion based on views or based on contents and assesment, then so be it. But I am not starting with any preconcieved notions except one and that is that the world posesses far greater knowledge today and far less unfounded assumptions than when compared to 2000 years back.

And some of the first questions that arose are - how big is this work of Thirukural? Can it even be classified as a "work"? When was it composed?

It seems it was composed around 2000 years back.

As to how big, it seems it is a fairly short work that could be in a short booklet, consisting about 1300 or so couplets. Is there more? Am I missing something?
So, it is perhaps 1300 to 2000 lines total. That seems something very small in terms of literary works. How much wisdom can it have?

How does it compare to say works of aristotle, plato or the likes of Mahabharata?

Mahabharata

The Internet Classics Archive | Works by Aristotle

Works of Aristotle

Works of Plato

Thirukural

So, my next step was what is so great about it? I started exploring further.

Verse 951 An innate sense of rights and shying away from wrong Are found together only in the nobly born.

Verse 952 Men of noble birth will never fall from three: Virtuous conduct, truthfulness, and modesty.

Who buys into above, I have Brookly Bridge for sale, cheap. I own it.

Verse 50 He who pursues the householder's life well here on earth Will be placed among the Gods there in heaven.

Really?

Verse 55 Even the rains will fall at the command of the wife Who upon rising worships not God, but her husband.

I am sure a lot of males will want a wife like described above and perhaps this designed to coerce women to worship their husbands and perhaps this was consistent with the local customs and cultures of the time, hence I cannot fault this one and many others. But of course, in today's time the above falls flat and is an invalid coercion, suggestion to females.

Verse 910 Prosperous men whose thoughts dwell in the mind Never indulge in the folly of doting on their wives.

:)

Verse 909 Neither virtuous deeds nor vast wealth nor other accomplishments Will be found with men who carry out their wife's commands.

Soomdy, I need your commentary on above.

Verse 921 Those who crave intoxicating drink each day Will neither be feared nor famed.

The above is probably true, because I am neither feared and nor famous.

Now of course, we can dig up more and comment on those and that is precisely what I am hoping.

But all in all, it seems like some couplets similar to Kabir's Dohas (of course Kabir is centuries later, but Aristotle was earlier). Some wisdom that is just pure common sense, some more applicable to those times perhaps and some not applicable today at all. Some totally wrong or based on his own beliefs.

What is so earth shattering if someone writes, do not drink, gamble, go to a hooker or listen to the commands of your wife? Isn't this the type of advice commonly given in India by parents (whether right or wrong is a separate issue).

So, is it a great literary work? Great philosophical work? Just a great work? or not even a "work"?

or

Nothing great?

I think I have said enough for the first post and will wait for comments.

Fire away.

[layman]

Before we go further, what according to you and Bobus is great work on ethics and worldly wisdom of conduct dating back to 2000 yrs? If Socrates just came up with a method and Aristotle is plain wrong in everything, what according to you is a good work circa 2nd century BC?

What is so great about the writings of Stephen Covey or Peter Drucker? What have they told newly?

What is so great about anything for that matter? There is a member in this forum who is looking for ethical guidance from Dharma for R2I decision. Ethical guidance for day to day life may look trivial but might have contributed to form the foundation of the value system for an entire society. I don't know how you chose to ignore that.

It is easy to criticize a couple of poems from a list of 1330 poems.
There is one poem in Thirukural

"Solvathu Yarkum eliyavaam; ariayavam
solliya vannam seyal"

Meaning- It is easy to say something. But, when it comes to the actual deed, it is very difficult.

2000 yrs back people were savage and uncultured. At that time this guy comes up with crisp poems praising the virtue of education, listening skills, gratitude and whole bunch of other topics as listed in http://www.tamilnation.org/literature/kural/kuralE1.htm

Isn't that commendable? Do you think 2000 yrs back people gave importance to education? When the whole population was agrarian the guy writes in a palm leaf, "Thottanai thoorum manarkeni, mantharku katranai thoorum arivu" meaning "the more you dig for a well, the more you get water; similarly, the more you study the more your wisdom develops". There is enormous content in the link provided. But, it is difficult to compare it with Mahabharat or Aristotle. They belong to different categories in my opinion.

Regarding your reference to "noble birth" I think there is some distortion due to translation. Thiruvalluvar extols noble conduct not "noble birth" per se.

For example, there is a saying in Tamil "Thontir pugazhodu thontuga". Literal meaning is, "if you are born, be born famous". But, the actual meaning is, "if you are born in this world, you should do something substantial to achieve fame and name."

Thirukkural is a literary masterpiece both in form and substance. All 1330 poems are one and a half lines long with its own precision and beauty.

[submarine66]

Thirukkural is a literary masterpiece both in form and substance. All 1330 poems are one and a half lines long with its own precision and beauty.

One of my favourite verses is verse 129 "Theeyinal Sutta Pun Ullarum, Aarathe Naavinal Sutta Vadu" which means "The wound caused by fire heals with time, but the wound caused by harsh words will never heal".

I still remember learning this as a 7 year old. Similar prose like these from Thirukural have probably contributed to my values.

However, do I treat it as the "bible" I lead my life by, of course not. To me it is no different than any other literature I read that affirms certain values I construe important, and certain others I gloss over.

[RRK]

reposted in new thread from HnB:
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I dont pray to Thirukural.

But I appreciate the beauty of each of the kural. Yes, it teaches morality, ethics, love in the family, passion between couples, sex, importance of education, justice, robbery, socialism, capitalism, bit of communism, role of govt, priests, all what ever one can think of. This is all written 2000 years back when probably most of the time was spent on fighting several mini wars between small kingdoms down south.

When translated in another language for sure all 1330 would read as phrases and old sayings. On the surface that is what you see.

The beauty is he used only 7 tamil words for each of them and leave you in disbelief how those words can be used that powerfully, rhythmicaly to express what he wanted to say. The beauty lies in the language, choice of words and expression.

One need to have deep knowledge of tamil to appreciate many of them. Translation those beauties in any language does not help. I read the translations for humor. Translation can get the meaning to the readers but not the poetic tamil words chosen by the original author.

Translations can tell you what subjects are covered and nothing more.
So, if any one wish to learn more, dont read translations, talk to some tamil school teacher and ask them to read out few and explain. ( otherwise it is like reading Byron or Tagore in Tamil )

I have 12 years of tamil education, but when I read several of them, I get the general meaning, but not why some words were selected by author over other which were common. A good guide will help in revealing the hidden meaning in some of the words to make you wonder.. It is difficult to forget that 'kural' after that..
__________________

[Patnababu]

I first heard about this, I think, in the old MSN groups forum. The recent hullabullo on those made me probe a little deeper.

My intention of the post below is not to denigrate but to look at something objectively, that apparently some people hold in high esteem? Is it worthy of such esteem?
[/quote]

Desi, it all depends on whom you ask? Since I do not know the tamil, translated work of thirukural may not look great. That does not mean that it is not great work. It has its own charm to people who can understand Tamil. Few verses does make sense to tami illiterates like you and me. In telugu, we have Vemana shatakam and sumathi shatakam to name few. Based on my understanding of Thirukural, these two (veman and sumathi) are similar to Thirukural. I can understand and enojoy these shatakas very well in telugu. When I read english translation of these on the net I did not enjoy as much as I did the orignal telugu version.

I am sure Kabir Doha may fall into same category too. I still remeber my first kabir dohe ...Jati na poocho sadhu ko; pooch li jiye gyan... :)

But I am not starting with any preconcieved notions except one and that is that the world posesses far greater knowledge today and far less unfounded assumptions than when compared to 2000 years back.
[/quote]

No matter which area you take it, this is always the case. Be it Thirukural, Vemana shatakam, Kabir doha, mahabharat, Bhagavadgita, Ayurveda, or even modern medicine. The only differene is some cases things are getting updated and in other cases they are not. Do not mean to side track here but all the scriptures mentioned in Ayurveda may not be meaningful today (for example 'cow urine') but significant number of pharmacognocists are looking at Ayurvedic books to learn tips and tricks to find medicinal values of herbs under modern light. The same is true for Thirukural or kabir doha.

How does it compare to say works of aristotle, plato or the likes of Mahabharata?
[/quote]

I do not think you can really compare with one other ( I can not). Can you compare Mahabharat with kabir Doha? Which one is great and why? What is the parameter to compare?

Verse 921 Those who crave intoxicating drink each day Will neither be feared nor famed.

The above is probably true, because I am neither feared and nor famous.
[/quote]

Do I say more? :):):):)

But all in all, it seems like some couplets similar to Kabir's Dohas (of course Kabir is centuries later, but Aristotle was earlier). Some wisdom that is just pure common sense, some more applicable to those times perhaps and some not applicable today at all. Some totally wrong or based on his own beliefs.
[/quote]

I agree.

What is so earth shattering if someone writes, do not drink, gamble, go to a hooker or listen to the commands of your wife? Isn't this the type of advice commonly given in India by parents (whether right or wrong is a separate issue).
[/quote]

Desi, you know it very well. It's relativity.

So, is it a great literary work? Great philosophical work? Just a great work? or not even a "work"?

or

Nothing great?
[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, can you please quote a centuries old 'great work' by your standards? and why? :)

PB

[Patnababu]

Verse 921 Those who crave intoxicating drink each day Will neither be feared nor famed.

The above is probably true, because I am neither feared and nor famous.

[/quote]

Desi, I was sharing the above verse with my wife this morning. She slightly modified it as follows.

Verse 921 Those who crave watching computer all day Will neither be feared nor shamed.

Now you know the rest of the story.... how addicted to the r2Iclub lately. It reminds me my first "addiction thread" in old forum couple of years ago. :)

PB

[Bobus]

My sisters and parents have studied Thirukural, in Tamil. So have my wife and her parents.

Am the black sheep who has merely read English translations - my Tamil reading speed is slow - never studied the language formally - was home taught the script so I could read jokes / cartoons in periodicals like Ananda Viketan, read signs in TN, ... and can pass India census literacy test in Tamil and avoid being called Tamil illiterate. :)

I asked my wife and MIL yesterday about Thirukural. They talked about its literary value - I have already conceded that based on what others say - in the H and B thread.

My wife also said that the couplets are handy to use in some situations where the other person also has decent command of Tamil, and that it would be a waste on me coz I would ask for a translation in plainspeak :)

Beyond literary value, I see it as a mere collection of proverbs / prescriptions for behavior. Whats the big song and dance about such a collection?

Added Later

People who have been exposed to it from childhood may be culturally conditioned and may have some affection for it. I will confess to having some affection for the epics Mahabharata and Ramayana because I was exposed to them from childhood and as a child have enjoyed going to sessions where these were narrated by people like Krupananda Variar, Keeran, ...

Beyond such cultural conditioning and affection, the Thirukural may have helped the Tamil language's claim to the status of a classical language - a status it enjoys with just one other Indian language - Sanskrit. This classical language status may be source of pride to some and there may be other language lovers who may envy this status of Tamil and crave for such status for the language they love, even if it does not deserve it. Since I have not contributed to Tamil language, my pride is zilch.

[Desi]

Before we go further, what according to you and Bobus is great work on ethics and worldly wisdom of conduct dating back to 2000 yrs? [/quote]

I cannot speak for Bobus, you will have to ask him on his views.

I do consider Nicomachean Ethics as a great philosophical work considering that it was written some 2300 years back.

[quote]If Socrates just came up with a method and Aristotle is plain wrong in everything, what according to you is a good work circa 2nd century BC?[/quote]

A good or great work is something that has a great amount of thought that has gone into it. It shows a high degree of analytical thought for it to be considered great by me. An advice of "beta, maas, Machhi mat khana" (son, don't eat meat or fish) does not qualify as great by me. Restating the norms of the day or obvious is not necessarily something great to me.

Socrates did not just come up with a method. You may find more about him in the Socratic discourses of Plato. Socrates laid the foundations on the methods of inquiry. If one liners (which some call poems or Kural) is what makes a work great, then Socrates had many at least 400 years before Thiruvalluvar and great ones at that "An unexamined life is not worth living" and so on.

The exchange in Mahabharata between Krishna and Arjun was a Socratic type dialogue.

Many great writers of the past at times reached wrong conclusions. This is because of assumptions. As the methods of inquiry, reasoning and thought were refined they got to more accurate conclusions. A wrong conclusion in itself does not diminish the greatness of a work in my opinion, it diminishes its value. When a large body of analytical thought that encompasses several areas has gone into it, to me the work is to be aplauded but it may have not much value due to eventual wrong conclusion perhaps due to a few faulty assumptions.

Aristotle was perhaps the first scientist of recorded history. His ideas on cosmology were accepted for 1800 years. No one came up with anything for 1800 years to refute Aristotle and if that is not great to you, fine. Aristotle contributed to mechanics and Physics (which was known as natural philosphy then). Aristotle's ideas though wrong on cosmology, remained accepted for 1800 years. What made his works great is the depth and and breadth. They were not 2000 lines that could be written in a day or two. He covered heavenly bodies, material bodies on earth, mechanics and motion, etc.

[quote]What is so great about the writings of Stephen Covey or Peter Drucker? What have they told newly?[/quote] I have read limited about them except for a few seminars and do not plan to write a dissertation. Peter has written in ideas on corporate managment is something that we did not know from centuries back.

[quote]What is so great about anything for that matter? [/quote]Perhaps nothing for you, but I hold Einstein and Lallu Prasad Yadav and RT in separate light. I categorize one as great and the other two as buffoons.

[quote]There is a member in this forum who is looking for ethical guidance from Dharma for R2I decision. Ethical guidance for day to day life may look trivial but might have contributed to form the foundation of the value system for an entire society. I don't know how you chose to ignore that.[/quote]What makes you think I ignore that, but if you have evidence that Thirukural formed the basis for the form and foundation for the value system of a society for large periods, post the info.

[quote]
It is easy to criticize a couple of poems from a list of 1330 poems.
There is one poem in Thirukural

"Solvathu Yarkum eliyavaam; ariayavam
solliya vannam seyal"

Meaning- It is easy to say something. But, when it comes to the actual deed, it is very difficult.
[/quote]

First what I commented on were more than just a couple of what you call "poems" and what to me are one liners. So they were not a couple. Second that was just a sampling - do you really beleive that that is all there is that I can criticize in 1300 lines. I am sure I can pull out more.

The point was - what is so great? No one is saying that every Kural is nonsense. Sure, many Kurals had wisdom in them. But what I fail to understand how 1300 one liners that can be written over a weekend and those that do not really require great philsophical thought be categorized as great.

I posted my post, to see counter views. My views are known. I wanted to see why people consider it as great.

[quote]2000 yrs back people were savage and uncultured. At that time this guy comes up with crisp poems praising the virtue of education, listening skills, gratitude and whole bunch of other topics as listed in http://www.tamilnation.org/literature/kural/kuralE1.htm[/quote]

I think there are more than just a few people here in this forum who will vehemently dispute with you that people were uncultured and savage 2000 years back. There are people who will point to Vedas and Mahabharata as evidence of culture and civilization and I will agree with them on that point. There are people who will point to the Kingdoms of Ashoka and point that society was organized and I will agree with them

There are more than a few people in this forum who will point to vedas, Ramayana and Mahabharata and claim, that the world back then was advanced enough to know about big bang, string theory, airplanes used by Ram, Nuclear missiles launched at Alexandar and during Mahabharata war, TV with which Dhritrashtra was narrated the war, Reclamation and bridge constructing techniques to build Ram Setu and on these all I will disagree with them. By no stretch of imagination, we can call that world uncivilized, perhaps a lot less knowledge about the world, perhaps a lot less reasoning but not uncivilized savages.

[quote]Isn't that commendable? Do you think 2000 yrs back people gave importance to education? When the whole population was agrarian the guy writes in a palm leaf, "Thottanai thoorum manarkeni, mantharku katranai thoorum arivu" meaning "the more you dig for a well, the more you get water; similarly, the more you study the more your wisdom develops". There is enormous content in the link provided. [/quote] I think that credit should be give where credit is due. And Thiruvalluvar deserves credit for writing down some concepts and one liners.

Contrary to what you think, people did give importnace to education system. The system Gurukuls in India goes back 2000 years and much earlier. Here you may want to read about the great Nalanda University and see pictures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

[quote]

But, it is difficult to compare it with Mahabharat or Aristotle. They belong to different categories in my opinion.
[/quote]
It is left to the individual. In my opinion, The Kurals don't even come close to the philosophical thought, the breadth and depth of Aristotle and as far as mahabharata, some of the same thoughts as for Aristotle apply. Mahabharata's theories on cosmology look to be something someone dreamed up without any backing and much thought and can be dismissed. In any case, to me on a comparitive basis, Mahabharata and Aristotle works are great and Kulars are not. Mahabharata is 100 times larger work than Thirukular.

[quote]Regarding your reference to "noble birth" I think there is some distortion due to translation. Thiruvalluvar extols noble conduct not "noble birth" per se.[/quote] I will take your word for it. I do not know Tamil and I did not do that translation.

[quote]For example, there is a saying in Tamil "Thontir pugazhodu thontuga". Literal meaning is, "if you are born, be born famous". But, the actual meaning is, "if you are born in this world, you should do something substantial to achieve fame and name."[/quote] I have no disagreements that translations can sometimes butcher the real meaning and I generally hope that translators take care to convey the thought as much as possible.

[quote]
Thirukkural is a literary masterpiece both in form and substance. All 1330 poems are one and a half lines long with its own precision and beauty.
[/quote] We can agree to disagree. You call it a literary masterpiece. To me, forget masterpiece, I even question if it is a literary work or a bunch of one liners that standup comedians dish out often, but of course these are in a different context and that of an advice on some life actions.

As to precision and beauty, all I can do is smile in disagreement.

As 1300 Kurals, 1.5 lines long, I do not call that a Poem. I call them one liners. And something that can be written over a weekend may be great (after all even a half liner E = MC2 was just few words that changed the world), but to me it ain't.

[layman]

A good or great work is something that has a great amount of thought that has gone into it. It shows a high degree of analytical thought for it to be considered great by me. An advice of "beta, maas, Machhi mat khana" (son, don't eat meat or fish) does not qualify as great by me. Restating the norms of the day or obvious is not necessarily something great to me.
[/quote]
Well, in that case Kama Sutra is the greatest work that has come out of India applying your criterion! One can hail that. :) I will respond later to other points after office.

[layman]

[quote]
Mahabharata is 100 times larger work than Thirukular.
[/quote]
Yes. Mahabharat is big and Thirukural just gives relevent advice/guidelins and stops with that. That is why it is applicable even today..

But, if you are enchanted by the idea of 5 brothers sharing one wife and each of them having multiple wives of their own and Lord Krishna advising Arjun he has to go to war because by birth he is Kshatriya etc, I can't talk to you further.