MT: Archaeolgy, Anthropology, Paleontology

[Desi]

At RaReSha's suggestion for a separate thread on some discussions we had on some Indian archaeology, I am opening this thread on archaeology.

While the thread is general archaeology which would include the world, I would not be surprised if the thread focusses on Indian archaelogy because this is a forum comprised of members with Indian Origin.

I think it is good to have a healthy level of skeptcism. Given that either vanity, pride or a myriad of other reasons that lead to deductions that are biased, suspect or otherwise overreach, the reader should not buy at face value anything present in the links. Some links may be credible and yet others not.

Some Links to start with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology

http://www.archaeology.org/

Machu Picchu

World Atlas of Archaeology

URE Museum

Parthenon

FORVM ANTIQVVM: Roman Art and Archaeology

Archaeological Survey of India (ASI)

http://members.tripod.com/IMAGE_INDIA/sculpture.html

Vedic Archeology

The Archaeology Channel - Welcome

Scientific Verification of Vedic Knowledge: Archaeology Online

Mohenjo-daro the Ancient Indus Valley City in Photographs

Mohenjodaro 1

Ancient Indus Valley Civilization of Ancient India and Pakistan

Pictures, Photos of Nalanda, India

[RRS]

If you are claiming that Vedas are historical, then you should show at least some things as to what is historical in them. Quote a few sentences of what is historical in them.
[/quote]
Desi,

Your exchange was with sandeepskar. But I take the liberty to divert your attention. Do you think the analysis done here is valid or invalid to prove that the Krishna and Vedas resided at one time in India?
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-age_fs.html

Thanks.

[Desi]

Desi,

Your exchange was with sandeepskar. But I take the liberty to divert your attention. Do you think the analysis done here is valid or invalid to prove that the Krishna and Vedas resided at one time in India?
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-age_fs.html

Thanks.[/quote]

RRS,

Any specific links that I should look into. I clicked on the link and was unsure which link. I perused a few links a bit. But some more direction on the roadmap please.

I am looking at Vedic archealogy and vedic Discoveries and will post my comments tomorrow.
Vedic Archaeology
Vedic Discoveries

The above two are the links I am looking at. Please add any other specific links that I should look at.

[RRS]

RRS,

Any specific links that I should look into. I clicked on the link and was unsure which link. I perused a few links a bit. But some more direction on the roadmap please.[/quote]
My apologies; didn't pay attention that the link stays same for subtopics. I was interested to see your view on vedic archeology pgs 1 and 2.

Thanks.

[Desi]

Desi,

Your exchange was with sandeepskar. But I take the liberty to divert your attention. Do you think the analysis done here is valid or invalid to prove that the Krishna and Vedas resided at one time in India?
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-age_fs.html

Thanks.[/quote]
RRS,

Comments on Part 1:

Only archaelogical evidences put forth by the Part 1 in that link are the following:

1. That there is a Heliodorus column claimed to be from 113 BC. ( I have no specific reasons to research its authenticity further - I take it on face value).

2. That the column was erected by Heliodorus.

3. Information about Heliodorus origins.

4. That Heliodorus erected a Garuda column dedicated to a god named Vasudeva whom Heliodorus called God of Gods.

5. At one point the translation has referred to God as "Vasudeva (Visnu)". I am presuming that "Visnu" in parenthesis is insertion by the translator. (Note that Visnu is mentioned as one of the deities in Vedas, but not Krishna, the dieties in vedas start with Agni and Indra and so on).

6. If you read the Sanskrit portion written in English, you will see that actually whether even "Vasudeva" is not mentioned but mentioned as Vavasa. The sude is inserted to interpret it as Vasudevasa.

7. The other item mentioned is that Chandogya Upanishad mentions Krishna. this I do not call archaeological evidence. The various texts over the centuries have been susceptible to corruption. However putting that aside, all the mention in Krishna in Chandogya Upanishad is open to interpretation whether that is a reference to God, or to a historical person.

The following link may give a slightly different picture.

Megasthenes, references to Herakles is being interpreted as reference to Krishna. Why could Herakles be not Hercules?

I have always held that the Sun God, Dyas Pitr (Helios, Zeus), the chariot in the sky and the Jagannath Puri sun temple all are correlated. Couple centuries before Heliodorus, Alexander the Great had already made rounds of India. The Greek influence existed in India. The Heliodorus column is one of the obelisks that were being built in that time. Type Obelisk and search in Google Images and see some Roman Obelisk.

The inscription on the column reveals that Vasudeva or Vavasa was worshipped as God of Gods. No one denies that Krishna hsa been worshipped as God from a long time.

I wanted to do some research on some of the names mentioned in part 1, especially because the site reminded my of Stephen Knapp stuff, but I could not find much information on some names mentioned.

Regarding part II, I want to do some research before I post comments on part II. I have heard / read but never dug deep in the pasts of coins showig "Balram" but I would not be able to put my finger on it now.

More tomorrow.

[Desi]

RRS,

My comments on Part II of Vedic archaelogy.

Part 2:

Section 1 describes Mora well slab. The claims made in the document are as follows:

Translation on the slab yields that "the five heroes of vrishni clan" are worshipped. No other information on any translation is provided in quotes. The document says that Krishna was worshipped.

My Comments: There is no identification as to how are they dating this stone. Second even accepting that the stone predated Christianity, the stone reveals that Krishna (if indeed there is a mention which is not clear) was worshipped during the BC era.

Section 2 talks of Ghosundi inscription.

The Ghosundi inscription is in the Northren Brahmi script and according to the article dated to 200 BC. ( My comment - Brahmi script is know to have been around since about 500 BC and used on rock inscriptions). The script mentions Samkarshana and Vasudeva as the Gods.

They further talk of an identical script discovered nearby in an area called Hathi-vada.

Nanaghat Cave inscription in a cave in the state of Maharahstra also mentions Vasudeva and Sankarshana in what is claimed to be an invocation. The article claims this as from second half of first century BC.

Now, this link claims clams the following:

The antiquity of Lord Vishnu worship dates back to a few centuries before the Christian era, as seen from the Nanaghat Cave inscriptions of Naganika. This is confirmed by a Garudadhvaja erected in honour of Vasudeva at Besnagar, Vidisha, 2nd cent B.C., Madhya Pradesh, by Heliodorus, a Greek who called himself a Bhagavata.

The following is from the linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naneghat:

The Naneghat records have proved very important in establishing the history of the region. Vedic Gods like Yama (Hinduism) Indra, Chandra and Surya are mentioned here. The mention of Samkarsana and Vasudeva indicate the prevalence of Bhagavata form of Hinduism in the Satavahana dynasty.

=========================

So far, nothing here proves that Krishna was some real live creature who lived.

By the way, besides the link you mentioned, I could not find anything else on the Mora slab anywhere on the internet. I did not search for Ghosundi inscription because 2nd century BC, Vishnu being worshipped is not surprising. Vedas mention Visnu, Agni, Indra etc
=======================
Numismatics

obverse, head of Herakles with lion-skin helmet

Is this the same Herakles that the link thinks is Krishna?

reverse, enthroned Zeus as sculpted by Pheidias in Temple of Zeus at Olympia

Pictures of gods on ancient coinage has been there in history.

Compare this with Agathocles coin pictiorally.

http://www.kernunnos.com/culture/warriors/trophiesAV.jpe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathocles

The coins show to me what looks like a shield. I really find nothing in that coin to deduce that it is talking of Krishna.

Roman and Greek Gods have been on their coins. So also warriors have been on coins such as Alexander the great on the Greek coins and Julius Caesar on Roman coins.

The Agothcles coin picture is being deduced as that of Krishna - I find that as over reaching - here is the picture:

However, I will go on to say that if a coin of Krishna is found from 2nd century BC, all it will prove is that Krishna was worshipped then.

All of the evidence so far is that Vasudeva was mentioned in inscriptions and caves that have been dated to 2nd century BC.

[RRS]

Desi,

May be these posts related to the authenticity/non-fictional part of epics/Vedas belong to a different thread or a place holder that we can update as we get new information.

Thanks for all your information and the time spent in gleaning new information. My curiosity started after reading 'Parva' from a Kannada author who spent considerable years in researching the origin of 'Gandharvas' near Himalayas and the custom of 'Niyoga' of getting insemination from a fertile source to get offspring if the male partner is impotent, prevalent in those areas (how Ambika/Kunti/Gandhari etc became mothers relates to that practice); he also found out that polyandry isn't uncommon in those tribes(Panchali having 5 husbands). He was inspired by the similar works of a Marathi historian/author (I forget his name).

My logic is : we have authentic sources from christian era that Jesus lived once. Analyzing Bible and Koran, holy books of two main religions of the world indicate that referenced characters in those books were real people living in those eras. So only Vedas/Hindu epics cannot be exception that characters in only these holy books are fictional. In 2005, a new excavation near Haryana uncovered several new evidences that Kurukshetra/Mahabharata is a possibility.Elevation of humans to gods is human doing and we are seeing those elevations even in 21st century. But I will be open minded if the information contrary to my beliefs emerge from archaeological evidences.

[Desi]

Desi,

May be these posts related to the authenticity/non-fictional part of epics/Vedas belong to a different thread or a place holder that we can update as we get new information.

Thanks for all your information and the time spent in gleaning new information. My curiosity started after reading 'Parva' from a Kannada author who spent considerable years in researching the origin of 'Gandharvas' near Himalayas and the custom of 'Niyoga' of getting insemination from a fertile source to get offspring if the male partner is impotent, prevalent in those areas (how Ambika/Kunti/Gandhari etc became mothers relates to that practice); he also found out that polyandry isn't uncommon in those tribes(Panchali having 5 husbands). He was inspired by the similar works of a Marathi historian/author (I forget his name).

My logic is : we have authentic sources from christian era that Jesus lived once. Analyzing Bible and Koran, holy books of two main religions of the world indicate that referenced characters in those books were real people living in those eras. So only Vedas/Hindu epics cannot be exception that characters in only these holy books are fictional. In 2005, a new excavation near Haryana uncovered several new evidences that Kurukshetra/Mahabharata is a possibility.Elevation of humans to gods is human doing and we are seeing those elevations even in 21st century. But I will be open minded if the information contrary to my beliefs emerge from archaeological evidences.[/quote]


RRS,

I will open a new thread on archaelogy or some similar heading.

That some real events and real Humans may have inspired Ramayana and Mahabharata is very very possible and that then they were elevated to being worshipped either then as it was written or during subsequent morphings is all very possible and probable also. I have never had a contention with that part.

[RRS]

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_vartak.html
The scientific dating of Mahabharata .
I am posting the link though, some of it escapes the reasoning and my skepticism on astronomic dating makes me roll my eyes in some explanations. But it concurs with many people's view (including some of the western researchers) that Mahabharata might have occurred between 3000-3100 BC.

[Chicago Desi]

It is becoming more and more evident through recent findings that modern humans evolved earlier than thought before. I read on yahoo that modern human remains from 1.3 million years ago were found recently in Spain. Also, there are indications that humans evolved into societies (organized civilization) earlier than thought as well. Yahoo carried an article about an excavation in South America that predates Mohenjodaro and other known civilizations. Unfortunately, I do not have links, but I am sure one can find them if one were to google for them.

One can only derive that modern humans (homosapiens) have evolved and lived in civilized fashion for many more years than previously thought. And there is more history to humans than we thought till a few years ago. While Pushpak may be far fetched imagination, historical stories like Noah's Ark and the avatars of Vishnu have a basis and may not be pure fiction.

Lost (relatively advanced) civilizations that disappeared due to catastrophes are real. Perhaps, it was just a matter of time that humans populated the entire earth and science is a natural extension of human evolution. There are still a lot of things that we do not know about ourselves. Our beliefs are being challenged every day.