First of all thanks for such a wonderful forum and helpful members here. I have personally spoken to one or 2 senior r2i members here and they have been really helpful. I am also writing this post so that I can get more feedbacks.
Some background: I had r2i’ed about 2.5 years back to Mumbai after staying 9 years in USA, I have a kid who is in 1st grade and we are all USC. I just recently turned 37.
Reasons/Thoughts for R2A are very much similar to what many like delhir2i, phazam and recently river98 have written. It is a constant battle against poor infra, corruption and also very important unbelievable cost of living. Every single month there is rise in inflation and it is very hard to keep up.
We live with our parents in a 2BHK and it is really impossible to buy 3BHK in a decent location here in Mumbai, which is not less then 600K$. I do not have that kind of savings, we have decent one, but it is getting impossible to save with increasing cost of living. The salaries are not able to keep up with this inflation and unless you are earning 30 to 40 L per year it will remain a pipe dream.
I know most of the people here will ask that why I did not think about all this before R2I. I did, living with aging parents was one of main points. But after 2 years of day to day grinding I am questioning is this worth it. Following are the main points.
1) It will be impossible to save enough to buy 600K apartment here in Mumbai. We have ok savings from US but we are not from a rich or businessmen background.
2) Let’s assume that we are able to buy 600K apartment somehow, but looking at their match box size and with very poor infra, I really cannot think about paying that kind of money. It will be hard to sleep at night (really).
3) Other option is to move to Tier 2 city like Pune where things are more affordable but again we have to change the school and go to a new place. Most of the folks who have R2I will tell you that it is such a dig deal to get admissions here in good schools. I cannot forget the ordeal we have to go through for the admissions here. At good schools you need to have very good connections and then hope for the best. This is the point where I think R2A thoughts are even more prevalent. If we have to go Tier 2 city with moving kid and as well as parents, might as well as R2A. At least we will not uproot our parents from a city they have been for so many years. They are really nice about this issue of moving to Tier 2 city but I know they will be happy here and it does not seem right to move them at this stage.
4) Cost of living has increased about 30% and more in last 2 years and salary is not able to keep up with this rising cost. The way things are it is going to get worst before it is going to improve. Just to give you an example when I landed here the petrol price was 44 Rs now in 2 years it is 72Rs. It is getting really hard to save after all the regular monthly, one time and vacation costs.
5) I really like seeing my kid open up and enjoy in school and the building. One of the best parts is seeing grand parents enjoying and seeing 3 generations together is the only shining point.
6) Lack of close friends here is also one of the things that keep on coming. We had a good group back in the East Coast and we do miss them. We do have new friends here but it is different. It seems even though in India people are more social they are always busy in their shell. Most of the college friends are either in US or UK and some of them who are here are busy with their own life. I must say this point does Not bear that much weightage as compared to moving to Tier 2 city. Just that lack of good close friends does come in to mind time to time.
7) For the COL the quality of life in this city is really bad. Things have only gone worse every year.
8) I have supporting parents and wife. Even though wify have adjusted well after the first year, I know deep down she misses USA as she was not very happy to R2I but agreed to come here for me. But this R2A thoughts are coming from me and not her.
9) If we R2A I don’t think we will ever R2I (unless forced), as after staying here for 2 plus years I know what are the positives and negatives. These 2.5 years have been best in terms of learning experience so I do not regret a bit about coming here but moving forward I have to make a decision which I will stick to for rest of my life.
10) Will my kid who is currently in 1st grad adjust back when we R2A?. If we decide to R2A it will be next year so if it will be from second grade.
11) If we R2A should be go back to East Coast where the chances of savings are less on single income, NJ/NY has one of highest taxes and worst winter weather for 5 months or move to some place like Dallas /TX where the weather is better and chances of saving are much more but the problem of friends comes back again?
12 ) How is IT job market for Java/J2EE/IBM person with 10+ years exp. All my friends back are doing ok and in fact have moved to better paying jobs.
All of these points have been playing around in my mind from last 6 months and it is now affecting me. I really need to make some kind of concrete decision soon.
What do you guys think. All your inputs are welcome.
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
I R2Ied about 2 years back as well to Mumbai. Everything you say about the city and CoL are true. RE is unaffordable and salary cannot keep up with cost rise. We are living with my parents as well but in a 3BHK flat.
R2A I think is a more emotional decision than R2I. When we R2I, we think of all the practical things in life (savings, kids education, fear of unknown etc) but with R2A, the single biggest factor that holds you back is the emotional effect on the parents especially if there is a young grand kid involved. You know pros and cons of both now. Your only dilemma really is how will parent take it. What city in US you go to is not a big issue. Job market is not a dilemma but information gathering and applying.
I am staying put in Mumbai and dealing with things as they come along.
R2A is not a failed R2I. You R2Ied and determined that back in US might be better for you.
R2A I think is a more emotional decision than R2I. When we R2I, we think of all the practical things in life (savings, kids education, fear of unknown etc) but with R2A, the single biggest factor that holds you back is the emotional effect on the parents especially if there is a young grand kid involved. You know pros and cons of both now. Your only dilemma really is how will parent take it. What city in US you go to is not a big issue. Job market is not a dilemma but information gathering and applying.
I am staying put in Mumbai and dealing with things as they come along.
R2A is not a failed R2I. You R2Ied and determined that back in US might be better for you.
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
1. In case you want to move to Pune for cost-advantage, do you have to uproot your parents to Pune? Why can't you manage parental duties by you staying in Pune, and parents in Mumbai?
2. If school admissions are difficult, then you can first try to get your kid admitted to school in Pune, and then try for job nearby. If the kid cannot get admitted to decent school in Pune for Grade 2 by February-April, you can fallback to R2A. Schools start in Aug/Sep in USA, and admission to public school is solely address-based.
With school admission season starting up, this will be a good time to try #2 & see how it goes.
2. If school admissions are difficult, then you can first try to get your kid admitted to school in Pune, and then try for job nearby. If the kid cannot get admitted to decent school in Pune for Grade 2 by February-April, you can fallback to R2A. Schools start in Aug/Sep in USA, and admission to public school is solely address-based.
With school admission season starting up, this will be a good time to try #2 & see how it goes.
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
sunnyr;422296First of all thanks for such a wonderful forum and helpful members here. I have personally spoken to one or 2 senior r2i members here and they have been really helpful. I am also writing this post so that I can get more feedbacks.
Some background: I had r2i’ed about 2.5 years back to Mumbai after staying 9 years in USA, I have a kid who is in 1st grade and we are all USC. I just recently turned 37.
Reasons/Thoughts for R2A are very much similar to what many like delhir2i, phazam and recently river98 have written. It is a constant battle against poor infra, corruption and also very important unbelievable cost of living. Every single month there is rise in inflation and it is very hard to keep up.
We live with our parents in a 2BHK and it is really impossible to buy 3BHK in a decent location here in Mumbai, which is not less then 600K$. I do not have that kind of savings, we have decent one, but it is getting impossible to save with increasing cost of living. The salaries are not able to keep up with this inflation and unless you are earning 30 to 40 L per year it will remain a pipe dream.
I know most of the people here will ask that why I did not think about all this before R2I. I did, living with aging parents was one of main points. But after 2 years of day to day grinding I am questioning is this worth it. Following are the main points.
1) It will be impossible to save enough to buy 600K apartment here in Mumbai. We have ok savings from US but we are not from a rich or businessmen background.
2) Let’s assume that we are able to buy 600K apartment somehow, but looking at their match box size and with very poor infra, I really cannot think about paying that kind of money. It will be hard to sleep at night (really).
3) Other option is to move to Tier 2 city like Pune where things are more affordable but again we have to change the school and go to a new place. Most of the folks who have R2I will tell you that it is such a dig deal to get admissions here in good schools. I cannot forget the ordeal we have to go through for the admissions here. At good schools you need to have very good connections and then hope for the best. This is the point where I think R2A thoughts are even more prevalent. If we have to go Tier 2 city with moving kid and as well as parents, might as well as R2A. At least we will not uproot our parents from a city they have been for so many years. They are really nice about this issue of moving to Tier 2 city but I know they will be happy here and it does not seem right to move them at this stage.
4) Cost of living has increased about 30% and more in last 2 years and salary is not able to keep up with this rising cost. The way things are it is going to get worst before it is going to improve. Just to give you an example when I landed here the petrol price was 44 Rs now in 2 years it is 72Rs. It is getting really hard to save after all the regular monthly, one time and vacation costs.
5) I really like seeing my kid open up and enjoy in school and the building. One of the best parts is seeing grand parents enjoying and seeing 3 generations together is the only shining point.
6) Lack of close friends here is also one of the things that keep on coming. We had a good group back in the East Coast and we do miss them. We do have new friends here but it is different. It seems even though in India people are more social they are always busy in their shell. Most of the college friends are either in US or UK and some of them who are here are busy with their own life. I must say this point does Not bear that much weightage as compared to moving to Tier 2 city. Just that lack of good close friends does come in to mind time to time.
7) For the COL the quality of life in this city is really bad. Things have only gone worse every year.
8) I have supporting parents and wife. Even though wify have adjusted well after the first year, I know deep down she misses USA as she was not very happy to R2I but agreed to come here for me. But this R2A thoughts are coming from me and not her.
9) If we R2A I don’t think we will ever R2I (unless forced), as after staying here for 2 plus years I know what are the positives and negatives. These 2.5 years have been best in terms of learning experience so I do not regret a bit about coming here but moving forward I have to make a decision which I will stick to for rest of my life.
10) Will my kid who is currently in 1st grad adjust back when we R2A?. If we decide to R2A it will be next year so if it will be from second grade.
11) If we R2A should be go back to East Coast where the chances of savings are less on single income, NJ/NY has one of highest taxes and worst winter weather for 5 months or move to some place like Dallas /TX where the weather is better and chances of saving are much more but the problem of friends comes back again?
12 ) How is IT job market for Java/J2EE/IBM person with 10+ years exp. All my friends back are doing ok and in fact have moved to better paying jobs.
All of these points have been playing around in my mind from last 6 months and it is now affecting me. I really need to make some kind of concrete decision soon.
What do you guys think. All your inputs are welcome.
Sunnyr - nice detailed post and you have laid things out very well. As someone who r2i then r2a then now rr2i i might be able to give you a better perspective.
First consider strongly a move to a tier 2 city. You need to calculate if the financials match - i.e. your salary in a city like Pune - will it afford you the ability to rent a decent size home, in reasonable proximity to work and school, as well as afford a good sustainable quality of life. A rough ball park guess for Pune would be your monthly expenses including house rent and school fees - the 2 biggies - would be about 60K. If an average Pune-kar can afford to live in Pune, I am sure someone with 10+years of exp in the US also can. Also see if the job profile be similar and the opportunities for professional growth also be somewhat on par?
Option 1 If this is a Yes - then talk to your wife about it first and then to your parents and get their input. Esp with your parents be totally upfront and candid - because these things might get misinterpreted unless clearly laid out. If finances are tight, then don't immediately plan on buying a large 3BHK where your parents can also move in. Anyday living in a city a short 90mi drive from them is preferable for both you and them than living in an alien country 7000mi away. So compare apples to apples. Compare moving with wife and kid to Pune to same move to Princeton. This way you can look at a 2BHK for rent and your monthly outgoings will be much better controlled. Your parents can still visit and stay extended periods of time with you and you can even plan on visiting them as a family multiple weekends and on holidays etc during the times they are in Mumbai. Besides Pune there may be other Tier 2 or even Tier 3 cities that may turn out to be viable options depending on your mothertongue and preferences - Rajkot, Surat, Ahmendabad, Panaji or even Hyderabad, Bangalore, etc. When looking at these dont dismiss the options right away - again do a honest comparison of that options vs the US of A and you may find that its not that far from home anyways. A friend of mine in a similar situation to you moved to Bangalore a year after r2i even though his parents are in Mumbai precisely for the reasons you mention.
Option 2 - If this is a no, then you are going to be forced to r2A. Even with that option I would not consider it a permanent move but only a temporary move for a specific purpose. To build up some cash reserves in a predefined time frame. This type of mentality will assist you in a] deciding where to r2A - obvious answer will be go to where the cost of living is low and the take home and savings potential high. and b]tailoring your expenses to need than greed so as to maximize your ability for a successful rr2i in the timeframe you predetermined. Your son is only in Gr 1 [- btw at THAT age he will adjust back to the USA before you can complete saying adjust] - even you stat in US for another 5 years I dont consider it too late in the day for a rr2i. Do not worry about lack of friends etc - it is the most minor aspect in all of this. First thing is think of what is right for you and your family. Wherever you go it will take a little time to make genuine friends and there is no guarantee that the friends you made in NY etc are not going to move for better jobs and warmer weather etc - so you cant go around chasing your friends or making decisions giving that a major weightage.
Lastly remember 'One of the best parts is seeing grand parents enjoying and seeing 3 generations together is the only shining point' - who needs stars spangled when the sun is shining - understand and reflect on how important is this ONE shining point in your mindset - if it is a priority - and it sounds to me like it is for you then be determined that you will safeguard this shining point with every ounce of determination and effort, and if you retreat, it will only be to return stronger and more determined. Best wishes.
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
OP, your situation is very similar to my experience. I R2Ied to Chennai after 11 years and R2Aed after 2.5 years. The cost of living was however not an issue in Chennai. Work live imbalance was. I am not very familar with Mumbai, so I will offer my thoughts on a few points below.
[quote] 3) Other option is to move to Tier 2 city like Pune where things are more affordable but again we have to change the school and go to a new place. Most of the folks who have R2I will tell you that it is such a dig deal to get admissions here in good schools. I cannot forget the ordeal we have to go through for the admissions here. [/quote]
I understand the ordeal involved here, but it sounds like this is a one time deal to get kids school admission and settling down. This will be likely less daunting task than a full fledged R2I. Once school admission is settled, you may start reaping benefits from the tier 2 lifestyle. I would seriously consider this.
[quote]10) Will my kid who is currently in 1st grad adjust back when we R2A?. If we decide to R2A it will be next year so if it will be from second grade. [/quote]
They adjust very well and quickly. However my son had to catch up on reading and writing as there is more emphasis on those here in the USA than in India during the first and second grades. However after 4-5 months he picked up and he was ok. We had to spend quite a bit of time to bring him upto speed. Math wad not an issue. Otherwise he was fine.
[quote]11) If we R2A should be go back to East Coast where the chances of savings are less on single income, NJ/NY has one of highest taxes and worst winter weather for 5 months or move to some place like Dallas /TX where the weather is better and chances of saving are much more but the problem of friends comes back again? [/quote]
I have seen people save a lot more in Texas vs East or West coast. The downside is you may have to start fresh developing a network of friends. Weather, I am not sure. I have heard friends complain of thunderstorms, hailstorms etc.
Good luck with your decision.
[quote] 3) Other option is to move to Tier 2 city like Pune where things are more affordable but again we have to change the school and go to a new place. Most of the folks who have R2I will tell you that it is such a dig deal to get admissions here in good schools. I cannot forget the ordeal we have to go through for the admissions here. [/quote]
I understand the ordeal involved here, but it sounds like this is a one time deal to get kids school admission and settling down. This will be likely less daunting task than a full fledged R2I. Once school admission is settled, you may start reaping benefits from the tier 2 lifestyle. I would seriously consider this.
[quote]10) Will my kid who is currently in 1st grad adjust back when we R2A?. If we decide to R2A it will be next year so if it will be from second grade. [/quote]
They adjust very well and quickly. However my son had to catch up on reading and writing as there is more emphasis on those here in the USA than in India during the first and second grades. However after 4-5 months he picked up and he was ok. We had to spend quite a bit of time to bring him upto speed. Math wad not an issue. Otherwise he was fine.
[quote]11) If we R2A should be go back to East Coast where the chances of savings are less on single income, NJ/NY has one of highest taxes and worst winter weather for 5 months or move to some place like Dallas /TX where the weather is better and chances of saving are much more but the problem of friends comes back again? [/quote]
I have seen people save a lot more in Texas vs East or West coast. The downside is you may have to start fresh developing a network of friends. Weather, I am not sure. I have heard friends complain of thunderstorms, hailstorms etc.
Good luck with your decision.
-
SeventhZense
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:02 pm
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
OP,
I am sure few have already given you their inputs and few more will give as appropriately.
I can correlate with you and what's going on with you ... Simply putting on basic level and not necessarily addressing all your points .. The biggest challange for you is NOT needing advice and opinions on the points you mentioned ( As you are smart adult to figure out yourself what is best for you ) BUT resolving conflict with yourself which is on one side your LOGIC told you already for R2A but your emotional heart telling you of stay in India.
Unfortunately it's a painful emotional roller-coster conflict you have to resolve by yourself where you will be your best friend and worst enemy at the same time.
Personally simply on gut feeling based what I read and sensed .. I think you should R2A.
You being happy and ( single income earner ) Family support .. your wife/kids will be better off when you are happy ( that is in US ). Your parent may feel a little bit sadness but than when they realize about "your happiness on bigger picture" .. Parent always wish best for the kids .. They will support you.
Best Luck
*SZ*
I am sure few have already given you their inputs and few more will give as appropriately.
I can correlate with you and what's going on with you ... Simply putting on basic level and not necessarily addressing all your points .. The biggest challange for you is NOT needing advice and opinions on the points you mentioned ( As you are smart adult to figure out yourself what is best for you ) BUT resolving conflict with yourself which is on one side your LOGIC told you already for R2A but your emotional heart telling you of stay in India.
Unfortunately it's a painful emotional roller-coster conflict you have to resolve by yourself where you will be your best friend and worst enemy at the same time.
Personally simply on gut feeling based what I read and sensed .. I think you should R2A.
You being happy and ( single income earner ) Family support .. your wife/kids will be better off when you are happy ( that is in US ). Your parent may feel a little bit sadness but than when they realize about "your happiness on bigger picture" .. Parent always wish best for the kids .. They will support you.
Best Luck
*SZ*
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
Man;422301
Do not worry about lack of friends etc - it is the most minor aspect in all of this. First thing is think of what is right for you and your family. Wherever you go it will take a little time to make genuine friends and there is no guarantee that the friends you made in NY etc are not going to move for better jobs and warmer weather etc - so you cant go around chasing your friends or making decisions giving that a major weightage.
Thanks. All very important points above in your detailed post and also the quoted one. It is always good to hear from experienced people.
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
Rajram;422304OP, your situation is very similar to my experience. I R2Ied to Chennai after 11 years and R2Aed after 2.5 years. The cost of living was however not an issue in Chennai. Work live imbalance was. I am not very familar with Mumbai, so I will offer my thoughts on a few points below. I understand the ordeal involved here
Rajram thanks for the input, I have read your diary and can identify with lot of points.
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
mkngtrbl;422298I R2Ied about 2 years back as well to Mumbai. Everything you say about the city and CoL are true. RE is unaffordable and salary cannot keep up with cost rise. We are living with my parents as well but in a 3BHK flat.
R2A is not a failed R2I. You R2Ied and determined that back in US might be better for you.
thanks. mkngtrbl yes you can identify with lot of things I have written about Mumbai. You are correct that R2A is not a failed R2I.
R2A Dilemma : Help Needed
SeventhZense;422324OP,
I can correlate with you and what's going on with you ... Simply putting on basic level and not necessarily addressing all your points .. The biggest challange for you is NOT needing advice and opinions on the points you mentioned ( As you are smart adult to figure out yourself what is best for you ) BUT resolving conflict with yourself which is on one side your LOGIC told you already for R2A but your emotional heart telling you of stay in India.
Unfortunately it's a painful emotional roller-coster conflict you have to resolve by yourself where you will be your best friend and worst enemy at the same time.
Personally simply on gut feeling based what I read and sensed .. I think you should R2A.
You being happy and ( single income earner ) Family support .. your wife/kids will be better off when you are happy ( that is in US ). Your parent may feel a little bit sadness but than when they realize about "your happiness on bigger picture" .. Parent always wish best for the kids .. They will support you.
Best Luck
*SZ*
SeventhZense,
Thanks. Your post is like a very good aryuvedic doc who takes your pulse and can identify which part/organ of the inner body is having issues and causing the outward symptoms. You are 100% correct in saying " BUT resolving conflict with yourself which is on one side your LOGIC told you already for R2A but your emotional heart telling you of stay in India." and "Unfortunately it's a painful emotional roller-coster conflict you have to resolve by yourself where you will be your best friend and worst enemy at the same time."
My friend this is exact dilemma / pain that I have been going through from past several months and I know the real answer is with me. But saying that, as you have mentioned above the emotional side and logical side are not in agreement and they only will when I get the real answer from within as where I will he happy. You have also correctly pointed out that my family and even ultimately parents will be happy to see me at peace and be happy.
Thanks once again. It is always good to write here and get good feedbacks from people who understand the dilemma. I have spoken to few people outside the forum and the first thing they mentioned was that then why did you R2I. I don’t blame them as they have not LIA and then R2I so they cannot understand the feeling.
Have a good weekend you all.